Natalie Hayward's Testimony (English)

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This is an English language translation of the testimony. See Natalie Hayward's Testimony for the original Italian transcript.
DEPOSITIONS OF THE WITNESS NATALIE HAYWARD
Key to abbreviations
GCM Giancarlo Massei Judge Presidente
NH Natalie Hayward Witness being questioned Meredith Kercher's friend
GM Giuliano Mignini Prosecutor Pubblico Ministero
CP Carlo Pacelli Lumumba civil lawyer Avvocato
MB Marco Brusco Raffaele Sollecito's defense lawyer Avvocato
CDV Carlo Dalla Vedova Knox defense lawyer Avvocato


N.B.: This translation of witness testimony into English from Italian is subject to revision during subsequent phases of proofreading, and thus should be considered as an intermediate rather than a final version. It is a free translation of the Italian original on which it is based and is being provided at this time for the convenience of interested parties who do not read Italian. Although every effort has been made to ensure its accuracy, in the event of a discrepancy between it and the Italian original, the latter shall be considered as accurate and the English‐language translation as erroneous.


Contents

Judge Massei

GCM:
Good evening. You do not speak Italian?
NH:
A little, a bit.
GCM:
If you’d rather try using Italian, that’s possible, but if you don’t feel at ease using Italian in responding to all questions you can have these questions translated to you by the interpreter and you are also able to respond using the language you know best and there is the interpreter to translate for you. It is pointed out to you that you have been summoned here as a witness and as a witness you are obliged to tell the truth, you are a public official… the witness is reminded of the moral and judicial consequences in case this obligation is not properly fulfilled, completely fulfilled. You must read the statement, and please state your name, date of birth and place of birth.

The witness, admonished pursuant to Article 497 of the Criminal Procedure Code, reads the oath.

NH:
I solemnly swear.
GCM:
What’s your name?
NH:
Natalie Hayward, born in Peterborough on November 18, 1985.
GCM:
OK. You may proceed, Mr Mignini.

Prosecutor Mignini

GM:
You were acquainted with Meredith Kercher?
NH:
Yes.
GM:
When did you get to know her?
NH:
In September 2007.
GM:
Listen, were you also acquainted with Amanda Knox?
NH:
Yes.
GM:
Did you ever go out together with them?
NH:
Yes.
GM:
Listen, do you recall if Meredith had a boyfriend?
NH:
Only towards the end of October.
GM:
Listen, when did you meet Meredith for the last time?
NH:
On 31st of October.
GM:
What happened then? Where were you, with whom were you?
NH:
I went to Amy and Robin’s house and we prepared Halloween dinner together.
GM:
Where were you after that?
NH:
We went to the Merlin Pub.
GM:
Who were there at the Merlin? Did you see Meredith meeting with some young man, in particular a black man?
NH:
No, I left early from the Merlin. I never went inside.
GM:
So in fact you left before [the others went inside the pub].
NH:
There were too many people so I didn’t go in.
GM:
Do you remember what time you left?
NH:
Around midnight.
GM:
So you didn’t see her any more, this was the last time.
NH:
Yes.
GM:
Listen, when did you hear about Meredith’s death?
NH:
On 2 November about 5 pm.
GM:
Who told you about it and then I’d like to know in particular what did they tell you?
NH:
A female police officer phoned me and said that there’d been an accident.
GM:
Did you know this accident concerned Meredith?
NH:
I knew it concerned Meredith, yes.
GM:
But did she tell you that she was dead?
NH:
No, she didn’t tell me that, she only told me to come to Meredith’s house.
GM:
But you learned during the evening that Meredith was dead?
NH:
Much later, around 10 pm.
GM:
Listen, when you went to the police station, this was on the evening of 2 November, wasn’t it?
NH:
Yes.
GM:
Who did you meet at the police station?
NH:
Robin, Amy, Amanda, Raffaele, Filomena, Laura...
GM:
First of all, do you remember how Raffaele and Amanda were dressed?
NH:
No, not precisely.
GM:
And then what were they saying and doing during that time that you were at the police station, in the waiting room?
NH:
Amanda and Raffaele were sitting together next to Filomena and Laura and I believe a friend of Laura, should I explain how they were?
GM:
Yes, what they were doing, I want to know that, what was the atmosphere like, what you (pl.) were doing there, was there any turmoil/ upset, the youngsters who were crying, who were not crying? And in particular what were they doing?
NH:
We English girls were very quiet and Amanda did not show …Amanda was not crying.
GM:
She was not crying.
NH:
She seemed to be quite angry, and then at times happy and then a bit frustrated, a bit angry.
GM:
So, at times she was angry for what reason?
NH:
I remember that she said that if she had been at home she would be dead and she seemed angry.
GM:
Listen, did she say where she had slept the night between the1st and 2nd and what she had done on the morning of the 2nd? If she told you, tell us about it, tell us what she said.
NH:
She said that she’d spent the night with her boyfriend Raffaele and that she had returned to her house the next morning around 11 am to change her clothes.
GM:
What had she noticed? Did she tell you?
NH:
She said that she’d found the entrance door open which she thought was a bit strange. Then she went inside, went into her room and then had a shower in their bathroom, she said that it was a bit strange, there were blood drops there.
GM:
Excuse me for a moment, but from what you could understand did Amanda have the shower before or after having seen the drops of blood?
NH:
After.
GM:
So she first saw the blood and then had the shower?
NH:
Yes.
GM:
Did she notice any other details, did she go into Meredith’s room, did she tell you about this? What did she tell you?
NH:
She said that after the shower she dressed up and noticed that Meredith’s door was locked.
GM:
It was locked.
NH:
Yes.
GM:
Had she noticed any other strange things in any other rooms? According to what she told you, of course.
NH:
Yes, she went to the other bathroom and she said there was poo in the bathroom and she thought it was strange. Then she entered another room and the window had been broken with glass inside the room.
GM:
Listen, but when Amanda told you about these things, it was you she was recounting them to, wasn’t it? To you directly or was she recounting them to everyone present?
NH:
To me and the other girls.
GM:
But wasn’t there someone to whom she had made these observations, someone, who had asked her if she had called the police or the carabinieri?
NH:
Yes, she told us that she had returned to Raffaele’s house and had called Filomena telling her that there was something strange in the house.
GM:
What did she say to you about the fact of calling the police? So did she say that the police had been called or that they would have been called when she was inside the house?
NH:
She never told me anything like that.
GM:
Listen, in your deposition here ... it’s a deposition identical to this one, I have the one from February 20, 2008 in front of me, you don’t remember but you said “still according to Amanda’s account she had called Filomena to inform her that something strange had happened in the house and to ask her to call the police.”
NH:
Yes.
GM:
You remember this?
NH:
Yes, yes.
GM:
You remember it, is that it?
NH:
Yes.
GM:
What happened then? Still according to what Amanda told you, did Filomena turn up?
NH:
Filomena arrived at the same time with the police and they broke down the door to Meredith’s room and found Meredith.
GM:
Listen, but in the account she told you [or: you told us] did she say to you [or: did you say] that this was the first night Meredith was alone in the house or didn’t she say that to you? Do you remember if she /you said something like that?
INT:
Excuse me, but are we still talking about Amanda’s words, about Amanda’s account?
GM:
Yes, yes, still about Amanda’s account.
NH:
Based on Amanda account?
GM:
Yes.
NH:
I don’t remember, did I say that?
GM:
You said, still in the depositions that I cited to you, referring still to what Amanda said: “she added that this night was the first time Meredith was alone in that house".
NH:
Yes, I remember.
GM:
Do you know how Meredith died? They told me that about 10 pm, at 22.00, did you (pl.) know this?
NH:
Yes, I heard the news from England.
GM:
But isn’t it true that on that occasion still at the police station you (pl.) were wondering how she’d died, if she had suffered, if she had been a victim of agony, that is, of prolonged suffering?
NH:
Yes, I said to Amanda that “I hope she didn’t die in great pain”.
GM:
And what did Amanda say to you?
NH:
She said "they cut her throat, Natalie, she must have died slowly in great pain".
GM:
"They cut her throat", or did she say "someone cut her throat"?
NH:
No, she said ‘they’ but in English it could mean one or more people.
GM:
Listen, do you remember if during that wait at the premises of the police station Amanda received a phone call?
NH:
I remember that she received one phone call. As far as I understood, it was from her stepfather.
GM:
And what did she say? Did you hear what she said on the phone?
NH:
Yes, she said to her stepfather "I found Meredith in the wardrobe with a duvet over her", which confused us a little bit because she had just told us that it was Filomena who found her.
GM:
Sure. Listen, and then during this wait how did Amanda and Raffaele behave with each other?
NH:
Raffaele was very calm, quiet; at times they were playing games together with their hands.
GM:
Played games with their hands.
NH:
Yes, with their hands.
GM:
All right, I have no further questions.
GCM:
Civil parties, do you have any questions? There are no questions.

Civil Party Counsel Pacelli

CP:
Two questions, Miss Hayward. I’m counsel Pacelli, Lumumba’s defense counsel. I’m referring to the evening of November 2, when you were in the offices of the police station. In that circumstance, did anyone present and in particular Miss Amanda, tell you that the poor Meredith had had sexual intercourse or in any case sex prior to being killed?
NH:
No they didn’t.
CP:
Listen, still on that evening, did anyone present and in particular Miss Amanda, tell you that the poor Meredith had shouted, had screamed before she died?
NH:
No.
CP:
Thank you. I have no further questions.
GCM:
Please go ahead.
MB:
I believe we are both in cross-examination.
GCM:
Only in cross-examination, please proceed.

Defence Counsel Brusco

MB:
Counsel Brusco for Sollecito. A few questions about the relationship between you and Meredith. If I’m not mistaken, I’ve been told you saw each other often and you were on the same degree program, here in Perugia.
NH:
Yes.
MB:
You saw each other practically every day?
NH:
Almost every day.
MB:
Do you remember if you had a lecture at the university on Tuesday afternoon?
GCM:
On Tuesday, 30 October, Counsel.
MB:
Every Tuesday and then this particular Tuesday was clearly the 30th. Yes.
NH:
I don’t remember.
MB:
You told earlier that you were together on October 31.
NH:
Yes.
MB:
The day before, the 30th, do you remember if you saw her that afternoon?
NH:
I don’t remember.
MB:
Did you see her in the evening? You don’t remember?
NH:
I don’t remember.
MB:
Alright. Did Meredith ever talk to you about Rudy Guede?
NH:
No, never.
MB:
As for the night at the police station, you talked earlier about November 2 when you all were at the police station; do you remember if the Italian roommates were crying?
NH:
No, they were very shocked, upset, tired.
MB:
But they were not crying. Do you remember if Raffaele and Amanda had any scratches, any obvious injuries or something else like that?
NH:
No.
MB:
Excellent. Thank you, I have finished.
GCM:
Amanda Knox defense, if you have any questions, it’s not obligatory. Please proceed.

Defence Counsel Dalla Vedova

CDV:
I’d like to return to the evening of the 31st. You said that you left from that discotheque around midnight because there were too many people.
NH:
Yes.
CDV:
And you left the other girls with other young people/ young men.
NH:
Yes
CDV:
Can you tell us if they had been drinking?
INT:
Excuse me, I didn’t understand.
CDV:
I’d like to know if the youngsters had been drinking, if they appeared...
GCM:
When, counsel?
CDV:
On the evening of the 31st when she left at midnight.
NH:
The other girls? Yes.
CDV:
Both your friends and the other girls?
NH:
The girls with whom I had eaten dinner had been drinking.
CDV:
But were they drunk or were they just cheerful?
NH:
They were cheerful.
CDV:
You went out with Meredith and Giacomo, you saw them often?
NH:
No.
CDV:
But you knew that Meredith had a relationship with Giacomo, she had told you about it?
NH:
Yes
CDV:
So you knew Giacomo?
NH:
No, I saw him at the police station [for the first time].
CDV:
But Meredith confided in you about Giacomo?
NH:
Yes, sometimes yes.
CDV:
And you knew that Meredith had keys to the downstairs apartment?
NH:
No, I didn’t know it.
CDV:
Listen, do you happen to know if on the 31st Amanda was going to attend this Halloween party with your group?
NH:
I don’t believe anyone had asked her to join us.
CDV:
Do you know if Amanda had asked Meredith about coming to the party, if she had talked about it with her or..?
NH:
She didn’t usually want to join the English group.
CDV:
I see. I have no further questions, thank you.
GCM:
There are no further questions. So to conclude the examination by the parties who have... There are no further questions.

Judge Massei

GCM:
There’s one more aspect. In that phone call between Amanda Knox and the stepfather when you were at the police station in the afternoon, if you can refer to what Amanda Knox in this occasion said, if she talked in a loud voice and what you (pl.) heard about what she was saying?
NH:
She talked in a loud voice; the only thing I heard was when she said: “I found Meredith in the wardrobe".
GCM:
Just in connection with this, did you ask Amanda Knox: "what did you say, did you find Meredith’s body in the wardrobe?” Did you ask for any clarifications? You said that you were a bit confused earlier when you were recalling this moment. So, did you search for any clarification to this confusion created by those words?
NH:
No, because everything was very confusing that night, so we thought Amanda was possibly confused.
GCM:
If you can say the literal phrase that Amanda Knox used on that occasion, on the phone on that same occasion, literally?
NH:
I only remember that she said to her stepfather “I found Meredith in the wardrobe and she was covered with a blanket".
GCM:
I have no further questions. The witness is dismissed. If there are no other questions, the witness is dismissed.