Marco Chiacchiera's Testimony (Hellmann) (English)

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Summary of Marco Chiacchiera's Testimony

  • Police officer testified to rebut Luciano Aviello's testimony.
  • Chiacchiera testified about a unrelated murder in which Aviello was also involved. Salvatore Conte a mafia member was executed by Marcelo Russo on the orders of Salvatore Menzo because Conte's cocaine addiction made him unreliable and led him to talk too much.
  • The police though communication intercepts had figured out Conte's murder but Aviello contacted Dr. Paci the prosecutor claiming to have useful details about the crime.
  • In March 2008 Aviello was heard and he told a wild story involving various criminal enterprises, a series of murders, and even a plot to kill a magistrate using TNT. At first the police tried to confirm Aviello's story and that included digging up a field where he claimed bodies had been buried and a day trip where Aviello led the police on a fruitless search for a body that was also not there. The police eventually concluded that Aviello had just made all of it up.
  • Chiacchiera was also tasked with investigating the claims Aviello made with respect to the murder of Meredith Kercher and he was able to confirm the following facts:
    • Aviello had two cell phones during the period in which he claimed to be living in Perugia. Both were used but not once in that time frame did they ever connect to a cell tower in Perugia.
    • Aviello claimed to be staying with Salvatore Menzo who was in the protective program but while Salvatore Menzo was in the protective program he was not being housed in Perugia.
    • Chiacchiera was unable to locate a single person who had seen or interacted with Aviello in Perugia.

Marco Chiacchiera's Testimony

This is an English language translation of the testimony. See Marco Chiacchiera's Testimony for the original Italian transcript.

Translation of Chiacchiera's deposition at AK/RS appeals trial June 27, 2011. Translated from the Italian court transcript: Media:Testimony 06 27 11.pdf

Thank you to Jools from the PerugiaMurderfile.org community for this translation.

Key to abbreviations
CPH Claudio Pratillo Hellmann Judge Presidente
GM Giuliano Mignini Prosecutor Pubblico Ministero
MC Marco Chiarcchiera Witness being questioned
CDV Carlo Dalla Vedova Knox defense lawyer Avvocato
WITNESS DEPOSITION – MARCO CHIACCHIERA

THE WITNESS CAUTIONED IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 497 OF THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, LEGAL PRACTICE FORMULA.

PRESIDING JUDGE -CPH: State your personal details, please.

Personal Details: I am Marco Chiacchiera, assistant vice Commissioner of the Polizia di Stato [State Police], currently Chief of the Flying Squad in Perugia; born October 5, 1965.

CPH:
Please begin Public Prosecutor.
GM:
Listen within the scope of your activity have you met Luciano Aviello?
MC:
Yes.
GM:
Okay, can you explain in what occasion and what was verified.

[76]

MC:
I have to make a small premise. Therefore, Luciano Aviello begins a kind of cooperation with Dr. [prosecutor-PM-] Paci since Dr. Paci was appointed in charge of an investigation activity for a homicide, which was the Conte murder, President I’ll very shortly start from there.
CPH:
Go ahead.
MC:
Back in November 2007 the dead body of Salvatore Conte was discovered in the countryside of Gubbio, identified as such afterwards because the body was in an advanced stage of decomposition. The body was discovered thanks to the collaboration of a Perugian man whose name is Paolo Carpisassi who together with the material perpetrator of the murder had concealed the body. The material perpetrator of the murder, to be concise, was Marcello Russso, a former member of the sacra corona unita [SCU] and he had done it under the orders of Salvatore Menzo who was a former Mafia member. The case was built as a result of a series of activity investigations, among which the listening of telephone calls tapping, which was already set up by the **DDA of Florence. That is in essence at the time of when Salvatore Conte was murdered by Marcello Russo there was already an activity of telephone interceptions on this company of criminals. The company of criminals was composed as I said by Menzo, Russo and Salvatore Conte, respectively formerly associates of mafia, sacra corona unita [SCU] and the camorra. Salvatore Conte for all sorts of reasons became unreliable for the group who had planned a series of criminal projects even in Umbria, part of which put into existence already. Salvatore Conte becomes unreliable because he is a cocaine addict; because he talks too much; because… then in the end both, Menzo and Russo they decide to kill him. We piece together the whole case and at the time that, I think some time before prosecutor Dr. Paci issued the provisional arrest notification for Menzo for the murder and various other crimes, [77] Luciano Aviello writes a letter from Terni prison to prosecutor Paci, saying that he wants to be heard because he had a series of useful details, investigative useful to rebuild the events that brought about the murder. Hence begins an act to question Aviello which initially was an act to hear him as a person informed of the facts, but Aviello right away, I think this was in March 2008, begins to disclose a whole series of particular details even incrimination of himself inasmuch to be brief on his part there was a sequence of facts that just showed him involved in a very long set of criminal facts, maybe I try to summarize them later, and at that point a defence lawyer was assigned to him and Aviello begun a collaboration as a person under investigation, let us say. Aviello was a collaborator of justice [turncoat], from the moment in which we; pm Paci, my colleagues and myself started to hear him he stopped being one. Aviello begins by telling a series of things about Menzo, he first says that he met Menzo in prison, then afterwards instead discloses that along with Salvatore Conte, who was the dead one, the one that was killed, they started a long series of criminal intentions by virtue of a friendship which came from long time when they shared criminal militancy. Also he said that after they got out of prison and after having - like - known each other, they begun a series of criminal projects to be carry out in Perugia. Especially Aviello was in cahoots with a certain Alessandro Grippa, as told by Aviello, Alessandro Grippa was a member of the camorra foggiana, then another prominent figure, and together with Alessando Grippa they had in mind to start criminal activities in Umbria, start to make business of drugs dealing together with Menzo and with Salvatore Conte. Aviello then said that he knew Menzo through [78] Salvatore Conte because Salvatore Conte had respect toward Menzo, he said that somehow or other it could be a person that would make him earn lots of money because he was an authoritative figure, he was already integrated, well-infiltrated inside the Perugian criminal circle therefore in some way they tried to put into being this sort of criminal partnership. During Aviello’s questioning he begins to tell us about a series of extremely serious matters, a series of murders that would have been carried out, along with Grippa, in complicity with him, with Aviello himself. To be brief - lets say- in quotation marks he confessed to have, together with Grippa, killed a Maghrebi who’d gone to make a delivery of drugs to Ferrara, they had killed him, they lured him into a trap because the Maghrebi was owed money, the Maghrebi had some of the stuff, in short they had killed him and after they buried him near an irrigation canal in Ferrara. And he’s telling us that he is not only capable of finding him but is even willing to find the dead body. After that he told us that they had killed his brother together, if I’m not mistaken but in any case I’ve got the documents, together they had killed his brother Antonio, I think his name is Antonio Aviello and that they killed two other Maghrebis in the Spoleto countryside, the countryside in Spoleto that was close to the house where he was posted during the joint venture. The two Maghrebis had also been lured into a trap, they were killed at night time by gunshots, in fact in a novelesque fictitious enough manner because it was next to the bowling alley, in sum it was quite unbelievable that it could actually had happened like that, and that was that they had buried them in between two trees which he had found at the time when he did an inspection of the area. After that he said that Alessandro Grippa, who [79] was his accomplice, had enormous clashes, family disagreements because of a nephew that some how had stolen money from him and so, this time in collaboration with Salvatore Conte whom, as per his version, helped him find a suitable place for the murder, Aviello and Grippa as always had lured him into a trap in Perugia, and they killed him by shooting him down with a gun to the back of his neck and buried him in a wooded area which he was able to find it. Lastly a Nigerian woman, last I promise, a Nigerian woman that had concealed the drugs that should had been delivered to the newborn organization among Alessandro Grippa, Luciano Aviello and Salvatore Menzo, the Nigerian woman was also enticed into a trap, kidnapped, savagely beaten with the intention to make her reveal where she had hidden the drugs, like this they would get possession without paying her, savagely beaten up till the end, seeing that they were not able to make her talk, she was killed with a metal rod, the woman was also, as told by Aviello, heavily pregnant, and was buried in the vicinity of a house in the centre of Perugia. Then he revealed even more criminal acts, drug pushing, he even said that he still had some sort of TNT leftover because they had a criminal intent, they wanted to kill a Magistrate in Potenza, after they weren’t able to and so they didn’t, some how the plan didn’t go forward, so part of the TNT remained in Naples inside an apartment. After that… there is even more but you know, there is even more… but I’ll stop here for now. Obviously… shall I continue?
GM:
Yes, yes, continue.
MC:
Obviously this whole activity told this way is very [80] brief but about deeds he told us so very many in such articulated way that, gave rise to a whole series of actions for us to check upon. Initially we were checking or trying to confirm, obviously along with Aviello, the place where the Spoleto dead bodies had been buried, if I’m not mistaken, Spoleto. We go to this area that it is quite a large area, very close to the motorway, there and then with collaborators we look to say: “Well it seems very unlikely that the kind of murder described could have taken place here” because on the other hand Aviello said that he gunned down one nearby, another one escaped and he killed him - like say - some sort of TV movie. Then the two dead bodies were picked up and buried between two trees. We excavated, there is, of course the activity report by the scientific police, everything was documented with photographs, we dug with large excavating machines, I repeat there are photographs therefore… there was even ground samples collected to determine if there was still residues of biological material but nothing was found. On the subsequent exits with Aviello instead was… we attempted to find the area where the body of Grippa’s nephew was concealed, he tells us that on that day they departed from Gubbio therefore it’s necessary to depart from Gubbio to retrace the road properly, he showed us a place that he thought was right. It was a place close to Collestrada, nearby Collestrada, those who know Perugia I think would know what I mean, in short from Gubbio we go downwards, he made us excavate on that day also two more places, obviously nothing was found. Then he said: “ No I remember now” and it was in an area, close to the industrial area of Collestrada, not within the industrial area of Collestrada, he said that probably the area where the body was concealed was after, on this area it existed a new built development that [81] however begun its construction before the murder. And then, still at that point we passed onto the Nigerian woman; the Nigerian woman according to Aviello had been murdered underneath the Procurina, Dr. Mignini, where is that…
GM:
Palazzo Rossi Scotti.
MC:
Yes, basically is where the Procurina archives are stored.
GM:
Yes.
MC:
Below, Porta Sole there is a big gate entrance that is just by the Belvedere, where the Belvedere is, we made him go inside, also on that occasion even we said: “But how were you able to kill a person here, most of all hide the body at this place” also because raising one’s eyes, there were, there are houses, so anybody looking out of the window would somehow seen an activity such as that is not that it requires one minute to do, that is it needs a shovel to excavate, to hide a dead body, however even in such zealous circumstance, even perhaps a bit too zealous, we excavated with a shovel and we didn’t find absolutely anything of what Aviello told us we’ll find, which should have been the corpse of this Nigerian woman. In the end, didn’t payoff, we eh, not payoff we’ve repeated a search because Aviello told us that he somehow wanted to retrieve it but he was hesitant, had several doubts, he had a whole range of difficulty, the fact is that in the end he took us to an area that is under Via Canali, under the financial district offices of Via Canali. You’ve seen it? There is a dilapidated area, he made us go inside, and he said, “It was here” where? In there we’ve also tried to check if there was soil movement or all the same if there was a place where actually a corpse might have been buried, and even there had absolutely negative results. Obviously on this whole [82] activity we gave account in various annotations to Dr. Paci, however on this case we considered it didn’t payoff. Because the operation was going forward and it also was on Alessandro Grippa. Alessandro Gripppa, who in some way was suppose to be an important point of reference for a new criminal group based in Turin, who was doing drug dealings in cahoots with Magrebis like in the ill-famed area of Turin, we operated a telephone interception activity also on Alessandro Grippa and the outcome was negative; we connected to the phones Aviello had at the time and even each and all negative. In the end the magistrate Dr. Paci issued a mandate to which we responded, the mandate is, I have it here with me and I think it’s important to read it, if I find it, okay, so we did the final report responding the points of the demand of Dr. Paci. I shall now go on to conclusion… At that moment Dr. Paci asked, “If there’s a relationship of any kind between Aviello and Conte”. We have done all the consistent checks at the police headquarters in Naples and Perugia with negative results “from the inspection carried out at the ***SDI inter-forces there never was contact, not ever one patrol raid -we call it like this- not one time ever Aviello and Conte have been stopped [arrested] together not in Naples neither elsewhere. Is not known that Aviello and Conte, during their stay in the various prison facilities, had ever endured common imprisonments”. So basically Aviello and Conte have not, at least we have not even one single confirmation of their contact, although Aviello claimed that he was a good friend of Conte and his collaboration in this was motivated by the fact that he was very disappointed of the fact that Conte had been killed. Two: "life certificates of the nephews, sons of the two sisters of Alessandro Grippa", one of those had [83] supposedly been killed, caught in a trap, in New Year’s Day of 2008. We even went down to San Severo, we did all of the checking of births registry, one of Grippa’s two sisters appears not to have children and the other sister has one son who was very well indeed, thus also this circumstance was completely false. In addition Aviello, I almost forgot, he told us that during an encounter meeting between Aviello, Grippa and a group of Albanians that were put into contact by Salvatore Conte in Perugia, I don’t know if I’m making myself clear, they meet up with a group of Albanians who were already part of the newly created criminal gang based in Perugia, they meet up at an apartment, apartment which he points to us and tells us where it is, where a violent altercation erupted, insomuch that Alessandro Grippa pulls out a gun and shoots one of the Albanians. The Albanian got hit in one leg... soon after, things settled down because Aviello was meant to be the peacemaker. Here too we did a whole series of checks, the apartment Aviello told us to verify in Via Costa di Prepo does not exist at all because in that three-storey apartment Albanians never lived there, we also made further enquiries at the hospital ER to see if maybe that day there had attended an Albanian – Mr. What’s his name – taken in with any shot from a firearm, also that one was totally in the negative. “Whether a non-European national, seemingly Albanian, turned out to be treated medically on the knee at the health services facilities in the time period indicated by Aviello: negative. Whether Aviello had been jailed with Russo and Conte: negative, absolutely not”. Afterwards Dr. Paci he asked us to acquire the Convictions of Luciano Aviello for “calunnia”- libel, one, two, three, four, five, [84] also for “auto calunnia”- self incriminate, maybe is not the right time to list all of them, nevertheless I believe there are numerous. And then "to hear some one called Misuso, imprisoned at Terni with Aviello" who anyway he told us that Aviello was a liar and a gossiper. Finally “to carry out the proper checks on telephones traffic of the cell phone subscribe line in use by Aviello in the period corresponding to the homicides allegedly committed in Umbria", it’s clear that if I have two phones one of which was seized at the time of the arrest of Aviello a cell phone that was good, so to speak, what’s more I have the phone that Aviello tells me he had in possession when he begins to co-operate, if none of the two cell phones within the time frame of these homicides have never once, not one single time ever hooked into the Perugia phone cell towers in any way I believe the checks were conclusive. At the time, the cell phone records related to April, May 2007, period of time in which Aviello stated that the murders of the two Maghrebis were committed, never hooked into Perugia. Cell phone records for January 2008, period of time in which Aviello stated that the murder was perpetrated against the female Nigerian national, never hooked the tower in Perugia. Inasmuch as regard to the period related to 2006 alas was too old therefore the telephone companies did not provide the bill records. Lastly “with regards to the homicides allegedly committed in Umbria, to show specifically the consistency of the statements Aviello made in light of the inspections undertaken in the presence of the propagator and his lawyer”, seems to me is not necessary to get back on the point because as I said before there was never any at all, there hasn’t been just any findings whatsoever of any human remains, all of the stated allegations were somewhat far-fetched even for the nature of the place where Aviello told us that the corpses had been buried because they were all far too [85] nearby to occupied houses and then with great difficulty, it wouldn’t be possible to do what Aviello said.
GM:
Listen, Aviello’s brother, Antonio Aviello, did you…
MC:
Yes we did look for him but we haven’t found him.
GM:
Listen, you done the investigations, either you, or I don’t know you tell me if there is anyone else that did…
MC:
Yes the investigations…
GM:
… the investigations in relation to the “calunnia” [charge] in detriment of the brother.
MC:
… subsequently were made by Monica Napoleoni.
GM:
Therefore from direct knowledge you know nothing of it?
MC:
Yes…
GM:
Are you signatory of the…
MC:
… I mean, I’ve sent the acts however Monica Napoleoni did the actual investigations.
GM:
Thank you, I have no more questions.

[Voices in background]

CPH:
What was the last question you asked Sir Prosecutor.
GM:
If he did the investigations himself in relation to the “calunnia” proceedings against Aviello and in detriment of his brother, proceedings for which…
CPH:
Very well. Defence, have you got questions?
CDV:
Yes I do briefly. Dr. Chiacchiera, are you aware of the letters that Aviello sent to the Assize Court of first degree? To Dr. Massei, the Presiding judge?
MC:
Yes vaguely.
CDV:
What do you mean vaguely? Did you ever read them?
MC:
I did read them but I vaguely remember them and have not [86] re-read them, I know a lot more about the letters he sent that other time, or rather before the event of which I am giving evidence now.
CDV:
Right now for us is far more interesting to understand the action or however the participation of Aviello in this proceedings. Aviello, I remind you, is all in the acts, has written three letters: 30 April 2009, 18 June 2009, 13 July 2009 and later gave a voluntary statement by way of registered mail the 28 March 2009, all of them addressed to President Judge Massei. Have you ever seen these documents?
MC:
Yes, I believe I have.
CDV:
And what type of investigation activity did you carried out?
MC:
On these documents?
CDV:
Yes.
MC:
What do these letters say? Can you remind me Counsel?
CDV:
He makes affirmations, which he after confirmed them in the last court hearing, saying that he knows who was responsible for Meredith’s murder, accusing the brother and various other, of having received also a knife, the keys, of having concealed it within a… if you wish I can read it out however the verbal transcript it is also there in the files President, nevertheless to summarize it is what I was saying. So he recounted in essence two important events, one is that he knows who the murderer is and claims the innocence of Sollecito and Knox; two…
GC:
And the question?
CDV:
Yes but since he wanted a clarification… the question is: what type of investigation have you conducted in relation to these…
MC:
The investigation was carried out upon the commissioning of the Judicial Authority and we did an investigation which I believe is been reported, if you like I can tell you, afterwards it can be done better than me by Deputy Napoleoni. Then to pursuit investigation over those letters I don’t think there was a case to do any, sorry what are you saying?
CDV:
Were you involved in the investigation concerning the murder of Meredith Kercher?
CPH:
You should be looking over here more than anywhere though…
MC:
I beg your pardon, is a mistake I always make. Excuse me.
CPH:
Don’t worry.
CDV:
I’ll repeat the question.
MC:
Yes thank you.
CDV:
Have you already testified in this process in the first degree?
MC:
Yes.
CDV:
Can you tell the Court [judges] about the investigation activity you performed within this case to determine the criminal responsibilities for the murder of Meredith kercher?
FM:
There’s objection President.
MC:
Everything, the whole investigation activity? I testified for three hours and ten minutes therefore I think that…
GM:
This is rebuttal in regards to Aviello’s testimony thus this question has nothing to do with it, there’s objection.
CPH:
They are the statements that Aviello made in this process, so since he worked with…

[Background and superimposed voices]

GC:
I think that the question directed at Dr. Chiacchiera, was instead about the investigation activity he performed on the case of the murder of Meredith, not for what Aviello said.
CPH:
No, I understood it in order of…

[88]

GC:
No, no.
CPH:
Okay let’s clarify, I’ve understood the activity performed by Dr. Chiacchiera was in order of information that Aviello testified he had about his brother’s involvement in the… I don’t know, this is what I understood. It is not like that?
CDV:
I’ll rephrase it, for clarity. You performed various investigative activities that you remark as having referred to already, precisely the activity with regards to the involvement of Aviello and on these three letters…
MC:
When are the letters dated Counsel? Pardon me, excuse me because I came back, in inverted commas I came back to Perugia on the first of November 2010, for one year I was the Chief of the Flying Squad in Terni so perhaps those letters arrived in that space of time…
CDV:
When did you go away from Perugia?
MC:
I had gone away from… yes but I was not in charge of the Perugia Flying Squad therefore I was not doing…
CPH:
Okay let’s ask him the question if he performed this activity.
MC:
… I wasn’t doing this type of activity, let’s us not co… that is if I may I think I can quickly clarify, if those letters arrived to the Court before the first of November…
CDV:
Sorry to interrupt you Dr. Chiacchiera, but before you said that you had read these letters.
MC:
Yes I’ve read them, it’s obvious I read them because when one arrives to a department of course maybe it reads them, not…
CDV:
Therefore is irrelevant if you were…
MC:
Is not irrelevant, you asked me, if I’ve understood correctly, unless I haven’t understood the question properly, if I had performed investigation activity on those letters, am I right?

[89]

CDV:
True.
MC:
If I was not chief of the Flying Squad before, that is during…
CDV:
And how come you read them excuse me?
MC:
… during the arrival of those letters I don’t know what type of activity I should have perform.
CDV:
Why were they brought to your attention? How come you read them? How come they were brought to your attention if you were not in charge?
MC:
How come I read them, Counsel? Because if I become chief officer and find an activity of investigation like this one I think is just right reading those letters, but I did not take the lead in doing the investigation from first of November onwards, obviously.
CPH:
All right, it’s cleared.
CDV:
But do you know if other persons from the Questura of Perugia did any investigation on these letters?
MC:
On those letters there?
CDV:
Yes.
MC:
I don’t know if there was an officially commissioned investigation activity on those letters, there was an investigation nevertheless carried out and I think we said to end it, on those letters. That is for…
CDV:
Is there no need to…
CPH:
Was an activity of initiative?
MC:
Sorry?
CPH:
Was an activity of initiative, not officially commissioned.
MC:
No absolutely not.
CDV:
Excuse me, Dr. Chiacchiera, I need to understand, you have referred accurately about all the investigation activity that you did with regard into other proceedings…
MC:
Because I’ve done it myself Counsel.
CDV:
You done it yourself, I ask you…

[90]

MC:
Simple as that.
CDV:
… having received information, always from the same person then in its same modality…
MC:
But there was investigation done eh.
CDV:
Right and can you say what type of investigation was done on Aviello then?
MC:
It was done… at the time it was done on Aviello, there was an investigation made…
CDV:
This is the question I asked you before.
MC:
Very well. There was investigation activity done to find out if Aviello in fact would have been present at the place where he said he was in the time context of Meredith’s murder, I seem to recall that Aviello stated that to kill Meredith it was his brother and that he was living in a house nearby which instead we found proof that he did not lived there. Moreover I remind you Counsel that the telephone interception activity which was done and also the phone calls traffic of numbers of Aviello’s telephone, they also covered that period there, that is the telephone traffic of Aviello’s cell phones to which I was referring before and which was established by other means, in any case it proves as false the fact that those two cell phones which were in Aviello’s possession had ever been present in Perugia in that period of time. Time frame which I remind you is that of November 2007, ironic twist of fate, as they say, at that time they were many, sadly were two homicides in Perugia, not only that of poor Meredith but also that of Salvatore Conte. So if you’re asking me what type of investigation activity I’ve done I tell you: we have considered all the elements to be able to determine if Aviello was present or not present around at say the crime place, his presence in Perugia and this type of verifications which was done also in relation to what the previous investigation already did it proved was false that he had been here and all the same rendered the circumstance absolutely untrue.
CDV:
Look, in particular, as you mentioned this research activity, Aviello says he was in a house, in an apartment in Via della Pergola which was for the use of Salvatore Menzo, who was under a protection program, can you confirm this?
MC:
What should I confirm Lawyer? Forgive me.
CDV:
That you are aware this Salvatore Menzo had an apartment in Via della Pergola under a protection program ...
MC:
No, I am not aware that Salvatore Menzo had an apartment in Via della Pergola, I am aware of the fact that Salvatore Menzo at that time was living in a completely different place and that Salvatore Menzo was being wiretap by the Florence DDA Procurer and Salvatore Menzo did not lived there but lived in another place, if you want I can also tell you where.
CDV:
No.
MC:
He lived in an area very far away from Via della Pergola, Counsel; he lived in an area that was…
CDV:
And so what kind of investigation was done around Via della Pergola?
MC:
We did a series of checks in connection with the registration office, but on this I think the one who can be far more precise is Deputy Napoleoni to whom I entrusted the activity of investigation.
CDV:
At the register office, then did you see at the register if Aviello was a resident?
MC:
No, we didn’t limit ourselves to that. I told you that Salvatore Menzo has never lived in Via della Pergola…
CDV:
No, I was asking you about Aviello and not Menzo.

[92]

MC:
… because there are a number of elements and circumstances that emanated from an operation of wiretapping…
CDV:
Dr. Chiacchiera, I asked you about Aviello not Menzo, I asked you… (inc. superimposed voices).
MC:
(inc. superimposed voices).
CPH:
But we can’t understand anything, if you are talking as well Counsel…
MC:
Counsel you asked me about Menzo, now you asking me about Aviello? Okay. Then I’ll answer on Aviello.
CDV:
I’m sure, I’ve asked only about Aviello, President, I did not asked…
MC:
Inasmuch… no you asked me about Menzo.
CDV:
No, if you want I can rephrase the question…
MC:
Counsel, you asked me about Menzo nevertheless I give you an answer also on Aviello…
CDV:
If the President…
MC:
Then to what it pertains to Aviello…
CDV:
To avoid… may I?
MC:
Tell me.
CDV:
I’ll rephrase the question.
MC:
Good.
CDV:
So let’s avoid this loss of time. My interest is if you did the activity in relation to Aviello, because he says he was in Via della Pergola, you told me that you did a check at the register...
MC:
You want me to start again from scratch?
CDV:
No, I’m asking you…

[Superimposed voices] [93]

CDV:
No, you only need to say…
MC:
What type of investigation we did…
CDV:
… if you [plural] did a research investigation of Aviello at the registry.
MC:
I’m compelled, I have no option but to start again, do I have to begin again? To tell what was the investigation activity we did to see the logic over the reliability of Aviello’s declarations?
CPH:
(inc. superimposed voices).
MC:
Shall we continue?
CPH:
Dr. Chiacchiera, please.
MC:
Okay, I start again.
CPH:
Be quiet one moment.
MC:
Pardon me.
CPH:
If I understand right you said that you had verified that the two cell phones in Aviello’s possession at that time frame had never connected to cell towers in this area of Via della Pergola, did I understand right?
MC:
You did understand correctly.

[Background voices]

MC:
To be precise Perugia, that is it just doesn’t appear at all that Aviello interacted with anyone in Perugia. His telephones were not in Perugia. And apart from that neither were the corpses that he told us he buried therefore…
CPH:
All right. We will now hear Dr. Napoleoni. Sorry… you want to ask something else Counsel?
CDV:
Yes sure. Another thing, inside the correspondence sent to the Court of Assizes there is also a letter from a certain Florio, do you know anything about this letter?
MC:
No.
CDV:
It was attached to one of Aviello’s letters.

[94]

MC:
No, really that one I don’t remember.
CDV:
You don’t remember.
MC:
No.
CDV:
All right thank you, that’s all.
CPH:
Thank you Dr. Chiacchiera, you can go I think. There are no more questions, true?
MZ:
Sorry, look just to clarify, because I like it, one is one, two is two, three is three, and to understand I need to proceed slowly. Aviello said that he was able to find knife, garments hidden in a wall, besides if true or not, has anybody been to look or not?
MC:
No.
CPH:
You can go, thank you.

|====End trans.====