Hicham Khiri's Testimony (English)

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This is an English language translation of the testimony. See Hicham Khiri's Testimony for the original Italian transcript.

Thank you to Thoughtful from the PerugiaMurderfile.org community for this translation.

GCM Giancarlo Massei Judge Presidente
GM Giuliano Mignini Prosecutor Pubblico Ministero
HK Hicham Khiri Witness being questioned
CDV Carlo Dalla Vedova Knox defense lawyer Avvocato
LG Luciano Ghirga Knox defense lawyer Avvocato
July 18, 2009

Contents

Defence counsel Dalla Vedova

CDV:
You were heard in the discovery phase [a sommarie informazioni] on November 3, 2007, on November 4, 2007 at 13:00 and the same day November 4 at 18:50?
HK:
Yes.
CDV:
...in the discovery phase [a sommarie informazioni]?
HK:
Yes.
CDV:
What is your activity Mr. Khiri?
HK:
I’m an entrepreneur, I have a business in the old city center, and I’m also a cook in the evening after work, so I work 14 hours per day.
CDV:
What’s the name of your shop?
HK:
Street Shop.
CDV:
What is it, a shop of what kind of business?
HK:
Streetwear clothing.
CDV:
When you were heard on the 3rd and 4th, where were you heard and by whom?
HK:
I was heard in the Questura. That evening they called me, they came directly to my house, the investigators called me in and heard me; Dr. Marco Chiacchiera heard me.
CDV:
Do you remember, on the 3rd, at what time you were heard?
HK:
Yes, on that day I stopped working at midnight and towards 12:30 I was at my house, and at the moment where I was just going to sleep, towards about 2 a.m., they knocked at my house. It was the police, they said: “Are you Hicham Khiri” – I said - “Yes” – “You have to come with us”, and I went with them.
CDV:
So you, that night at 2 a.m.…
HK:
Two at night, or a quarter after…
CDV:
And until what time were you there?
HK:
Until about four, I believe…at least two hours, at least two hours of questioning, two hours, two and a half, it’s not like I remember exactly.
CDV:
What type of question did they ask you?
HK:
They asked me things concerning the English student, if I knew that girl and the other girls, her friends.
CDV:
Did you know Meredith Kercher?
HK:
By sight, yes, because I knew her friend Sophie, and she was always together with her friend.
CDV:
Did you frequent each other, did you go out together in the evenings?
HK:
I met Sophie’s friend with her two or three times. But Meredith, no, I never had any contact with her.
CDV:
Can you tell us some particular fact, a disco for example, or some particular occasion?
HK:
Like, I don’t know, the day of Halloween we saw each other both at the “Merlin” and at the “Domus”, I met Sophie and Meredith was with her.
CDV:
And before Halloween you never met at the pub “Merlin”? At the beginning of September?
HK:
Yes, we saw each other there too, at the beginning of September, and I also ran into Sophie often, and her friend was always with her.
CDV:
But did you have intimate relations with this Mrs. Sophie?
HK:
No.
CDV:
But you made a pass at her?
HK:
Yes, on the day of Halloween, I made a pass at the girl Sophie, and I had fun with her on the day of Halloween at a place in the old city center.
CDV:
And did you kiss each other?
HK:
Yes.
CDV:
You said this at…
HK:
Yes yes yes, I testified to this in my interrogation.
CDV:
You also told a story about having brought the girls home from the “Merlin” in September, and one of the girls was inebriated, do you remember that?
HK:
No, that wasn’t at the “Merlin”, that was at…
CDV:
Sorry, not at the “Merlin”, at the “Gradisca”?
HK:
The “Gradisca”, yes.
CDV:
Can you tell us more about this episode?
HK:
So, that…so, one evening I was at this place the “Gradisca”, but I hadn’t met any of the girls in there, but while I was leaving I was with a friend of mine who had his car, and at the exit I saw this girl Sophie whom I knew, and she was so drunk that she needed someone to take her home. We gave them a ride to via Pinturicchio, that was all.
CDV:
And who else was there together with Sophie?
HK:
Meredith was also there, and another of her friends, there were three of them, we took them to via Pinturicchio.
CDV:
Do you know Amanda Knox, have you ever met her?
HK:
Yes, I met her once at Patrik’s pub, ex “Le Chic”..
CDV:
Patrik Lumumba?
HK:
Patrik Lumumba.
CDV:
But did you also meet her together with Meredith?
HK:
No, she was alone, she was with a boy called Juve, I knew her through him, he introduced her to me.
CDV:
You also talked about an episode concerning a ring that Sophie apparently gave you and then she…can you tell us about that episode?
HK:
That was the first day I met Sophie, it was during the first days of September, what I said was that she was in a pub in the old city center and we met and talked, and she left a ring of hers with me and then she came by my shop to get it, it was a little ring, nothing special.
CDV:
Were you ever at Meredith’s house in via della Pergola?
HK:
No, absolutely not, never.
CDV:
Do you know the boys who live underneath, on the lower floor of via della Pergola?
HK:
No, absolutely not, I don’t know any of those boys.
CDV:
Why were you called in again on the day of the 4th if you had been questioned until four in the morning on the night of the 3rd? Did they give you an explanation when they called you again?
HK:
They called me again because on the day that…I…on All Saint’s Day, that was also the day of the murder of Meredith Kercher, on that day I stopped work at midnight, like every day I stopped work at midnight, and I met a friend of mine, Francesco Baccelli, I met that friend and we talked about a special evening, an event that he was organizing, and he asked me if I could sponsor that event. So we chatted and I said: “Look, I’m tired and I have to get home as soon as I can because I’m really tired.”
CDV:
What day was that, and where were you when you had this meeting with your friend?
HK:
That was exactly the day, November 2nd, it was November 2nd, the very day of the murder of Meredith Kercher, exactly that day. I met this friend of mine, we met in the old city center, in piazza Dante to be precise.
CDV:
This friend of yours is named Zaccaria?
HK:
No, that one lives in my house, this was another one, this was Francesco Baccelli. He had his car parked at the Sant’Antonio parking lot, so while we were talking, he said to me “Shall we have a drink?” – I said – “No, I’m tired and really have to go to bed” – I said – “Where’s your car?” – he said – “My car’s in the parking lot” – I said “Come on, I’ll give you a ride.” So I gave him a ride to the parking lot, it takes two minutes, and then I went home.
CDV:
So at what time were you at the Sant’Antonio parking lot?
HK:
I stopped work at midnight.
CDV:
Sorry, what day are we talking about?
HK:
The day of the murder of Meredith Kercher.
CDV:
So November 2nd?
HK:
November 2nd.
CDV:
Or the 1st? Because she was killed on the night between the 1st and the 2nd, the 2nd is the day the body was found…
HK:
So if it’s after midnight, it’s the 2nd, after midnight it’s November 2nd.
CDV:
So you were at the parking lot in the night between the 1st and the 2nd?
HK:
It was after midnight, so…
CDV:
It was about how much after midnight?
HK:
Midnight and…well, I stopped work at midnight…
CDV:
Twelve thirty?
HK:
What?
CDV:
Twelve thirty?
HK:
Maybe around twelve twenty, it’d be just twelve twenty.
CDV:
And you were together with this friend of yours?
HK:
This friend, well, I gave him a ride, we stopped in front of the parking lot, it took 3 minutes max, because later the journalist said 5 or 6 minutes, but it was really 3 or 4 minutes; I drove him and I left him in front of the parking lot and he went down to get his car and I left.
CDV:
Did you notice anything particular while you were…
HK:
Absolutely not.
CDV:
Was anyone else there?
HK:
No one.
GCM:
Excuse me, can you explain “I drove him”, where were you coming from: from the university or the opposite direction?
HK:
I was in the old city center, my car was parked precisely in front of the Soprintendenza, in piazza della Soprintendenza, via Ulisse Rocchi. That’s where I had my car, I said to him: “Where’s your car” – he said to me – “I’ve got my car in Sant’Antonio”. So we went down via Ulisse Rocchi, I said to him
CDV:
Did you notice anything strange in the house at via della Pergola, were there any lights on for example?
HK:
No, actually I turned around with the house behind me and I was looking the other way.
CDV:
Did you hear any screams?
HK:
Absolutely not, I was inside the car.
CDV:
In your interrogation of the 3rd, you said that on November 1st, you had in fact met your friend Zaccaria, who lives with you.
HK:
Yes.
CDV:
He had just got back home, and you ate together in the kitchen; but then on the 4th, you told them about this meeting with your friend Francesco, still on the same evening. How is it that this other meeting, with your friend Francesco, wasn’t mentioned in the interrogation of the 3rd?
HK:
I didn’t mention it because well…because…no, I did say that I had met my friend Francesco, but I just didn’t tell them about the ride I gave him to the parking lot, but the fact that I met him, I said it on the first day. I said that I met him, that I left work and met my friend, we chatted a bit and then I went home.
CDV:
Did you see Meredith on the evening of Halloween?
HK:
Yes.
CDV:
Can you tell us in what context?
HK:
I was with the girl Sophie all the time…so first we saw each other at the “Merlin”, then at “Domus” from two to four, at four I left and they stayed; I was with Sophie and Meredith was with some girlfriends, she was always together with Sophie, she never separated from her friend. I was there from two to four with this girl Sophie, then at four I left and they stayed there at the “Domus”.
CDV:
Who else was there in Meredith’s group. Were there any boys?
HK:
Can you explain your question?
CDV:
In the group of English kids: Sophie, Meredith and…?
HK:
And her other friends? Okay.
CDV:
Do you remember the names of the others?
HK:
No, I only knew them by sight.
CDV:
Were there boys?
HK:
Boys?
CDV:
Boys, men, were there any men?
HK:
No, no there weren’t, there were only girls, there were three or four of them and the only guy with them was me.
CDV:
So during the evening, you never noticed any boy who danced with one of the girls or had a conversation?
HK:
From two to four I didn’t see any guy with them at all, and the place was full!
CDV:
But, you testified that there was a boy in a photograph that you had seen in Meredith’s company.
HK:
Who are we talking about? Can I have the name, then I can tell you…
CDV:
No, I’m asking you for the name, because you said that you saw a boy…
HK:
On the day of the interrogation, they asked me if I had ever seen a boy approach Meredith, and the only thing I could think of was a guy, Daniele; once I was with the girl Sophie and this Daniele was with Meredith and that’s it. I said this in my first interrogation.
CDV:
So, did you see a boy with Meredith on the evening of Halloween?
HK:
No, that wasn’t the evening of Halloween, that was before Halloween, about a month before.
CDV:
This boy was Gennaro’s brother?
HK:
Yes.
CDV:
Who is this Gennaro?
HK:
Who is he?
CDV:
Who is this Gennaro?
HK:
Gennaro is the owner of a pizzeria in the center, and now he’s also the owner of the “Merlin”, and that was his brother Daniele who was with Meredith, but that goes back to a month before the murder more or less, a month before.
CDV:
And where? Where did you see him?
HK:
It was in via Baldeschi, where it crosses via Ulisse Rocchi.
CDV:
Do you know Raffaele Sollecito?
HK:
No, I’ve never seen him.
CDV:
Do you know Rudy Guede?
HK:
By sight, yes, I’ve been living in Perugia for 12 years, I know him by sight, but I’ve never spoken to him, I’ve never had any contact with him.
CDV:
But where did you meet him? Where did you see him?
HK:
Perugia is a little town, it’s enough to go out to the fountain…in piazza IV Novembre and piazza Italia, and you meet everyone!
CDV:
So for example…
HK:
I saw him around town, and also in the pubs.
CDV:
Did you ever see him at the “Gradisca”?
HK:
No.
CDV:
At the “Merlin”?
HK:
Sometimes at the “Merlin”, yes.
CDV:
At the “Domus”?
HK:
Also.
CDV:
Was he together with other kids, or with girls?
HK:
Well, I only know him by sight, it’s not that I was looking at who he was with.
CDV:
I have no other questions.


Defence counsel Ghirga

LG:
You said that you were called to the Questura by Dr. Marco Chiacchiera?
HK:
Yes.
LG:
Was it Dr. Chiacchiera who took you as a witness? Do you remember Dr. Chiacchiera, was he the one who questioned you, who interrogated you?
HK:
Yes.
LG:
Because Dr. Chiacchiera doesn’t appear in the record. There were also policemen?
HK:
Dr. Chiacchiera was together with the police officers who knocked at my house and told me to come with us [sic]. In the interrogation, there was a heavy guy, I don’t know his name, he was together with Dr. Chiacchiera and they questioned me.
LG:
Where is the “Domus” in Perugia?
HK:
The “Domus” is across from the Teatro Morlacchi.
LG:
Near the Teatro Morlacchi?
HK:
Across from the Teatro Morlacchi.
LG:
And where is the “Merlin”?
HK:
The “Merlin” is in via del Forno.
LG:
Is that in front of the Grifo café, in front of the Comune, near there?
HK:
There’s this street that crosses between the Palazzo della Giustizia and the Palazzo dei Priori.
LG:
And where is the “Gradisca”?
HK:
In Ponte Valleceppi, in the industrial zone.
LG:
What is the “Gradisca”? A…?
HK:
It’s a disco.
LG:
And the two others, what are they?
HK:
The others are disco-pubs.
LG:
Where it was easy to meet the people you referred to?
HK:
In the old city center, those are the only places in the old city center, if you go there you meet everyone…
LG:
I wanted to clarify, but it isn’t absolutely important Presidente, but there’s a photo that was shown to you on November 4th, during your interrogation [sommarie informazioni testimoniali], that shows Meredith with two men, I’ll read you this part if you want, I don’t have the picture unfortunately. You were shown a photo from Repubblica.it where Meredith is shown with…the brother of…
HK:
The one…
LG:
Do you recall the picture that was shown to you?
HK:
Of course. The investigators showed it to me in the newspaper, and they said to me: “Do you know this person?” – I said – “Yes, I know him and I saw him talking to Meredith once”, and he was also interrogated; I also know this boy Daniele personally.
LG:
What’s his name?
HK:
Daniele.
LG:
This person, Daniele you say, met Meredith several times?
HK:
Several times I don’t know, but…
LG:
A few times?
HK:
But the investigators asked me if I ever saw Meredith in the company of a guy, and the only one I could think of was that I saw her with Daniele walking to piazza Ansidei.
LG:
It’s Gennaro who has the pizzeria?
HK:
That’s his brother.
LG:
In the photo there was Gennaro’s brother?
HK:
Yes.
LG:
And Meredith?
HK:
Yes.
LG:
And then there’s this other boy?
HK:
I know, but I don’t know his name.
LG:
You don’t know his name but you saw him other times with Meredith?
HK:
No, I never saw him with Meredith other times.
LG:
It was only Gennaro’s brother that you saw?
HK:
Yes, not the other one.
LG:
What do you mean by “they were speaking intimately”? To make what you said clearer to the Court.
HK:
They were talking, I mean she was talking intimately with a boy, they were talking just between themselves.
LG:
They were speaking intimately, we don’t understand how that intimacy was expressed, and when this intimate conversation between Gennaro’s brother and Meredith took place, with respect to November 1st. What do you recall? Was it ten days earlier, a month earlier, two weeks earlier?
HK:
It was about twenty days before, roughly, I don’t know exactly…
LG:
That’s all, I just wanted to make this clear.

Prosecutor Mignini

GM:
When you went to the Sant’Antonio parking lot, what streets did you take, I don’t know if I understood…
HK:
I came out of the place where I worked until midnight onto via Alessi, I went down via Alessi on foot and then the old city center, piazza Dante…
GM:
No, but I was asking if you went down the stairs of via della Pergola, next to the basketball court?
HK:
No, I was in my car.
GM:
Oh, you were in your car?
HK:
Yes, in my car.
GM:
Sorry.
HK:
I gave someone a ride.
GM:
I hadn’t understood! When you in your car went into the garage, did you see the house from the front?
HK:
First of all, I didn’t know that Meredith lived there.
GM:
Fine, but did you see the house?
HK:
I turned around, but I didn’t look.
GM:
You didn’t notice any broken panes in any windows…
HK:
No no, absolutely not.
GM:
You didn’t hear any scream, you said that your window was open?
HK:
I don’t remember.
GM:
The car window?
HK:
I don’t remember, it was cold, it was surely closed.
GM:
Were there people in the street?
HK:
There wasn’t anyone around that evening.
GM:
At that moment no one was around?
HK:
No one, in the center there were people, in the center, I remember that.
GM:
So you came down from piazza Grimana?
HK:
From piazza Grimana, I came down from piazza Grimana, I turned around, I accompanied my friend to the parking lot and then I returned…
GM:
And in the piazza there was nobody?
HK:
No, nobody.
GM:
And in the street there weren’t any cars or pedestrians?
HK:
Certainly no pedestrians, but there were some cars.
GM:
No pedestrians?
HK:
No, no pedestrians.
GM:
I have no other questions.

Judge Massei

GCM:
Did you hear footsteps, or something, when…
HK:
Hear what?
GCM:
Footsteps? [uses an unusual word: calpestio]
HK:
What’s that?
GCM:
The sound of people passing by quite quickly?
HK:
No, I was in the car.
GCM:
Nothing special?
HK:
No, I was in the car.
GCM:
You may go.

The witness is dismissed.