Cosimo Zaccaro's Testimony (English)

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Summary of Cosimo Zaccaro's Testimony

  • Originally met Luciano Aviello in 1987 when they were both in P2 a section for informants at Ivrea prison but he did not know Aviello well since they did not spend much time together.
  • Zaccaro is careful to state that everything he says is what Aviello told him and that he does not know if it is the truth or if Aviello was lying.
    • Asked if Aviello was known to lie Zaccaro said he did not know him but that he was a charlatan so probably.
  • Zaccaro told the court that Aviello had told him that he knew Alessi.
  • Zaccaro testified that one day Aviello was crying and that led to them talking and Aviello confided in him that Sollecito was going to pay him to confuse the court.
  • Zaccaro testified that Aviello had told him that he had been given €70,000 and that it was in a bank in San Paolo.
  • Zaccaro testified that Aviello had a letter from Raffaele Sollecito thanking him for all he was doing for him.
  • Zaccaro was asked about why he was in prison. His answer was a little bit of everything. Drug charges were mentioned as were fraud and theft. Zaccaro also had been charged three times and convicted twice of slander. His account of why he was in prison involved a hard to follow conspiracy and that he had previously been an secret government agent.

Cosimo Zaccaro's Testimony

This is an English language translation of the testimony. See Cosimo Zaccaro's Testimony for the original Italian transcript.

Translation of Zaccardo's deposition at AK/RS appeals trial June 27, 2011. Translated from the Italian court transcript: Media:Testimony 06 27 11.pdf

Thank you to Jools from the PerugiaMurderfile.org community for this translation.

Key to abbreviations
CPH Claudio Pratillo Hellmann Judge Presidente
GC Giancarlo Costagliola Prosecutor Procuratore Generale
CZ Cosimo Zaccardo Witness being questioned
GB Giulia Bongiorno Sollecito defense lawyer Avvocato
CDV Carlo Dalla Vedova Knox defense lawyer Avvocato
MZ Massimo Zanetti Judge Consigliere


WITNESS DEPOSITION – COSIMO ZACCARO

THE WITNES CAUTIONED IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 497 OF THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, LEGAL PRACTICE FORMULA.


PRESIDING JUDGE -CPH: Please state your personal details.

Personal details: Cosimo Zaccaro, born at Canosa di Puglia, Bari, April 18, 1954.

CPH:
Please go ahead Prosecutor General.
GC:
Mr. Zaccaro, do you know Luciano Aviello?
CZ:
Yes.

[38]

GC:
Since when do you know Aviello?
CZ:
I met Luciano Aviello the first time in 1987 while I was in transit from Ivrea prison, in the section at the time called P2 for ex-informants, we were all locked up, we couldn’t have…
GC:
Ex-informants?
CZ:
Yes.

[Background voice]

GC:
Don’t look at me; you must keep your mouth close to the microphone.
CZ:
I beg your pardon.
GC:
So, you’re telling me that you met him in…
CZ:
1987.

Public Prosecutor GM: In 1987.

CZ:
In the Ivrea prison.
GC:
Eh, are you telling me it is a prison for informants?
CZ:
Section yes, it was before they open the section… it was a section that afterwards you were moved to the informants’ section.
GC:
Then lets say a…
CZ:
Yes the section P2, it was called section P2.
GC:
In preparation [section] for those getting ready to give statements.
CZ:
Yes.
GC:
Did Aviello by chance ever asked you, since the time you known each other, information about drug pushers in Turin?
CZ:
No he didn’t asked me in the prison of…
GC:
No, I don’t know in which prison.
CZ:
No, no, no.
GC:
I want to know the fact not where he asked you.

[39]

CZ:
I did not understand the question.
GC:
Did he ask you, by chance, information about drug pushers in Turin?
CZ:
No.
GC:
Do you know if Luciano Aviello and Mario Alessi know each other or have been in contact?
CZ:
Like I said in this process here I’ve nothing to do, I’ve had revelations from Aviello like I’ve had them from others that, but I don’t know if he is had contacts with Alessi.
GC:
In other words you personally don’t know.
CZ:
No, no.
GC:
Did Aviello told you by chance?
CZ:
He said it perhaps to boast himself up but I was not present, if they had contacts Aviello and Alessi I don’t…
GC:
I’m interested only for you to distinguish.
CZ:
Yes.
GC:
Okay, Aviello told you that he knew him and that he was in contact with Alessi?
CZ:
Yes. That is all he said about him.
GC:
And have you ever spoke to Alessi?
CZ:
No.
GC:
You have never met.
CZ:
I don’t even know him.
GC:
Did Aviello tell you that Allesi made comments on the story…

Defence Counsel G. Bongiorno: I object to the suggestive question.

CPH:
Let us allow him to make the question at least.
GC:
No, he said: “Aviello told him…” and I was saying the content in the question, since is being held in exam…
GC:
Did he tell you anything on the story of the murder?

[40]

CZ:
Okay, it all goes back to May 2010, we were in section 4a of Ivrea prison, Aviello came, I was already there, Aviello arrived and on television it came out, when he arrived in Ivrea jail it came out that he was implicated in, on the statements given by Alessi about the murder of Meredith for which the accused were Sollecito and Amanda Knox. I and other detainees we didn’t really pay attention because we didn’t… then afterwards Aviello, we were doing sociality [free-time] together, me, Ilic, Aviello and other detainees, one day I saw him crying, Aviello said: “Go on, come to me at social-mingled [time] and I’ll tell you what is happening”, he said: “They have promised me things to bring in – how is it called? – So to create the… - how do you say the word? – Confusion, to create confusion [chaos] on the ongoing process”.
GC:
Which process?
CZ:
The Meredith process. I immediately didn’t give much weigh [to his words], in conversations with other detainees, it was said: “Well, it can also be true”, then it turned out that Aviello said: “Now I accuse my brother for this [case] process seeing that I’ve had contact with the [lady] Lawyer Bongiorno” frankly I don’t know if he would have had contact, this is always according to Aviello, according to everything told by him, which I don’t know if is true or not, he was in contact with a professor which then it turned out that the professor is the father of Sollecito. Like I said I was not there because I was in remand, I’m convicted since 98 therefore I cannot know if what Aviello was telling is true or not, this no, I cannot say, but to stay with everything that he was telling, he showed a letter really that, according to Aviello, it came from Mr. Sollecito, the detainee, in which he was thanking him for everything he was doing for him.
GC:
Did you see this letter?
CZ:
However I cannot say if it was from Solle… because I don’t [41] know his handwriting or the other one’s handwri… he showed us one letter and he said: “I now send it to my friend Antonio and then I have to give, if you must know letter is out, I make sure is given to Alessandro Grippa at Via San Paolo 8/6, Turin”. Its all there, this is what I declared… when I found out all these things I called the Questura in Perugia and I recounted what Aviello was putting into action lets say.
GC:
Excuse me, you in reference to Aviello you said that he spoke of his friend Antonio, who is he?
CZ:
I don’t know who could he be.
GC:
You don’t know, you don’t know him?
CZ:
No, I don’t… like I said, since convicted I cannot know people outside.
GC:
Do you know if, always about the information you got, did you get information that Alessi and Sollecito knew each other?
CZ:
According to what Alessi was telling me yes, they did have contact in prison, but like I said I cannot tell you that, what Aviello was telling me is the gospel truth because in the end I understood he was only a charlatan lets say.
CPH:
In the end you understood? Go back a bit.
CZ:
No?
CPH:
What did you say? At the end you understood?
CZ:
I understood, from what I heard on television, one thing and another, that to me he is a charlatan after all. Even at the time, when we were in the prison of Ivrea…

Civil parties Counsel F. Maresca: Speak into the microphone otherwise we can’t hear you.

CZ:
I beg your pardon, can you hear? When we were in Ivrea prison he said that Lawyer Bongiorno had promised him 70,000 euros, he said that those seventy thousand euros he got them in a bank in Corso Peschiera, by the Piazza [42] Sabotino, San Paolo, but I cannot know whether these things are true or if they’re not true, not this… this was what Aviello was going around telling all.
GC:
Does it seem to you that Aviello often said false things? Have you had a chance to ascertain this you personally?
CZ:
No, not at the time, now I am ascertaining that I don’t know if what he is telling is true or is not true because frankly I’m not longer able to understand… it could be that he was telling the truth.
GC:
All right, we don’t…
CZ:
I can’t, I can’t…
GC:
No, I asked you a different type of question, which was not on these facts.
CZ:
Oh.
GC:
I said did you have a chance to ascertain personally apart from that…
CZ:
No because Aviello after 87 I have not seen him again.
GC:
No I say apart from that, have you had a chance to ascertain that Aviello said things that often didn’t correspond to the truth?
CZ:
No because, like I said, that short time that I met him at Ivrea, in the prison of Ivrea, in 2010 I didn’t hang around with him much, the little… one day he asked me for help saying: “I am in this situation here what should I…” and I said: “Look it is your conscience that should do it not…” it’s all there.
GC:
But you told me that he spoke to you about his reconstruction of the murder.
CZ:
Yes he did speak of those stories… that Alessi told him but I don’t know whether Aviello and Alessi even met.
GC:
No, no, I understood…
CZ:
He said: “I have to create…” …
GC:
When you referred to the fact of [43] the brother…
CZ:
Yes, he said that it was not true.
GC:
Oh, he said that…
CZ:
No, no, he said that it was not… he invented it from scratch.
GC:
That he invented it…
CZ:
No, no, that, that was us, me with other inmates, which I wanted to tell also to the Chief of the Flying Squad, but the [female] Commissioner, said: “No, no, enough of this – she said we’re not interested in having other inmates that…” no, not about whatever it came out on the Turin newspaper “CronacaQui”, Aviello immediately committed himself to be taken in isolation within the Ivrea prison, after that we saw him working in the library, we went to greet him and he said: “They are giving me what I requested” I don’t know he… because they had promised him that they were sending him to the informants section and they would get him his surgery because then it came out that he was a “transvestite”, he was a homosexual, but no… nor can I say if he got the money, from whom he got it or how he got it, if he was operated on or not, this…
GC:
Do you know Ilic Alexander?
CZ:
Sorry?
GC:
Do you know Ilic Alexander?
CZ:
Yes, Ilic Alessandro yes, he was a prisoner in the Ivrea jail, he is the name I gave to the deputy Comissioner…
GC:
Did you [both] ever held conversations together with Aviello, also about this fact?
GC:
No. No, I’ve only told the deputy Commissioner that [44] Ilic perhaps could know more than me…
GC:
No, I meant this, didn’t you speak together?
CZ:
No, me and Ilic, from the time I begun to have contact with the deputy Commissioner, Ilic was taken to isolation, I’ve never got in touch with Mr. Ilic.
GC:
Very well. I have no more questions.
CPH:
Are there any questions from the defence?
GB:
You are in prison since 1998?
CZ:
Yes, 11 December 1998.
GB:
Were you arrested for a simulated blackmail terrorist act against the State?
CZ:
Yes because I wa… was part of a shift of the Secret Service in 98, kept on file at the Ministry of Interior…
GB:
Explain these things better to us?
CZ:
Okay, I was contacted in 96 by the secret services of the Finance Guards ((“Guardia di Finanza” equals special police force dealing with customs, excise and tax crimes)), kept on file, my file was sent to the Ministry of Interior, every operation that was being done I was getting paid.
GB:
You were paid for these operations
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
And this is what you did. I wanted to know if you were put in prison following a precautionary custodial warrant issued by the GIP [pre-investigation judge] Otello Lupacchini, in which…
CZ:
Lupacchini and Dr. Saviotti.
GB:
… and Dr. Saviotti, in which it was claimed that you simulated an attempt at the Court of Justice, you had derailed the investigations…
CZ:
No, it wasn’t, it was not simulated it was an operation that the Finance [Force] should have put into action and it ended up badly and at the end I took the blame. After six months this [45] operation here, that detention warrant was dropped, I was not convicted for that but for something else.
GB:
What were you convicted for?
CZ:
A bit of everything, [crime] association, slander…
GB:
What for? Sorry.
CZ:
I got [crime] association, receiving [stolen goods], fraud, slander…
GB:
Here.
CZ:
I’m not ashamed; I’m not ashamed to say it.
GB:
And this is what I want to know. Can you tell us please for which slanders were you convicted?
CZ:
Well I, the first slander that I had, it is because when they killed my blessed little brother, I recanted everything and that was my first slander. I have no longer faith in the institutions.

[Background voices]

CZ:
I said the first slander…
CPH:
Here, look at us rather than looking at the…
CZ:
Oh I beg your pardon.
CPH:
Look at us like that you are able… if you look at us you are also able to speak into the microphone.
GB:
If you can list the slanders for the President.
CZ:
I beg your pardon. What was I saying?
GB:
The first slander?
CZ:
The first slander is because I was threatened with death, is all in the acts file, and my little brother died in circumstances that after twenty-one years its still not known how he was killed and I’m afraid even the family has been threatened and I was threatened, you can ask at the prison of Pinerolo, to Sergeant Colla as they quickly had to moved me away because they were attacking the prison to kill me, in my fear I chose to take the slander, I chose the slander [charge] and not put my family at risk and in it [46] my grandchildren.
GB:
Yes but I’m interested in the slander, therefore who is that you falsely accused?
CZ:
I have not accused anyone falsely.
GB:
According to the prosecution [case] who is that you falsely accused?
CZ:
No, I have not accused anyone, I’ve only recanted, I said: “ I prefer to take the slander” supposedly what I said at that time it was false even though they were true things.
GB:
You were sentenced to nine years?
CZ:
To nine years? No, I have never had a sentence of nine years. Show me…
GB:
So how many, how many years was your sentence?
CZ:
I got four years, but for slander I got three months.
GB:
Three months.
CZ:
In total I got, in that process in 98 I got five and half years, four and half for drugs and the rest was for theft, receiving and slander.
GB:
Have you ever accused the honorable [MP] Borghezio?
CZ:
The MP Borghezio was part of it, and that is demonstrable, and if the Finance was to go around, in fact Borghezio he did not even wanted to continue, he did not even become Civil Party [plaintiff] in the process because he knew there was something that wasn’t right.
GB:
Have you falsely accused other Lawyers?
CZ:
No, I have not ever accused lawyers falsely. I’m sorry.
GB:
You have accused Lawyers though.
CZ:
No.

[47]

GB:
Not…
CZ:
Prove it to me; I have not ever accused Lawyers.
GB:
Very well, we reserve the right to produce some judiciary provisions.
CZ:
I can list the, I can list all three slander charges that I have, I can list them such as they are.
GB:
If you list them, like that we avoid…
CZ:
There is that one of the Finance Guard, the one against the Catanesi clan that the Prosecutor’s Office of Turin doesn’t want to… in fact still up to now the Prosecutor’s Office of Turin does not want to go into more depth in the Caccia murder only the instigators and not the executors were found, when I brought in the executors the Turin Prosecutor’s Office told me: “Leave it alone”. Also Dr. [pm] Tatangelo, in the process of Milan, the [pm] doctor… when an Inspector chief of the Police came to give testimony in court saying: “the operation Zaccaro made possible to do it came only from Zaccaro” the doctor Tatangelo dared to tell the deputy Commi… to the Chief Inspector of the Questura, he said: “You don’t even know where you are sitting” because there was no interest in having that process to stand up. I don’t know if this here is a slander.
GB:
So that Public Prosecutor, according to you, he was not interested to act on a process…
CZ:
No, doctor Tata… and it is in the acts file, when Albe… Nicola, a collaborator [informant] came in the courtroom and said: “Zaccaro is on the list of the eight that I had to killed” I said: “Now so is you”, and doctor [pm] Tatangelo told me: “Do not intimidate the witness”, I said: “Sorry?” The witness can intimidate me since I am in the list of the calabresi in eighth position to kill me and I cannot say to him that now he has collaborated [with the law] and he now is a target to kill?” Seems strange to me that a Public Prosecutor it addresses court that way also to a chief Inspector of the Police, Commisariato Mirafiori, [48] after that I was responsible for the arrest of twenty eight people from the clan Cata… of the calabresi in Turin, demonstrable in the acts file…
GB:
But look, you know something? Since you speak very fast…
CZ:
No, it irritates me that you… I am saying the truth of what I got from Aviello, what then can be…
CPH:
Listen, excuse, wait a moment.
CZ:
I beg your pardon.
CPH:
This time is not me who cannot hear you, but the panel of Judges they are complaining that you speak…
CZ:
Oh, that I speak too fast.
CPH:
… very fast.
CZ:
I beg your pardon.
CPH:
And not everyone is able to understand.
CZ:
Oh, I understand.
GB:
If you can say, calmly please, what the three slanders are. Here.
CZ:
Okay, the first slander is when in 89, I’m talking about so many years back, I retracted everything and nevertheless Milan put me up as a witness against the calabresi for the murder of doctor Bruno Caccia…
GB:
Excuse me then, you first accused someone and then later you retracted?
CZ:
I retracted yes.
GB:
And this is one thing. It was against whom?
CZ:
I no longer remember who they are.
GB:
You don’t remember the names.
CZ:
No, no, no.
GB:
And on this one, and so this was the first slander. [49]
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
Proceedings?
CZ:
I don’t remember, thirty years have passed.
GB:
Thirty years. Second slander?
CZ:
Second slander was dropped; precisely it was about Gaetano Panzera, a former Agent of Penitentiary Police that the Catanesi were accusing him that he was doing favors, I went to court and I said: “No it is not true he did favors” in fact if one looks at the penal certificate the charge of slander was dropped, I was dismissed. Clearly, because Gaetano Panzera said: “Yes, what Zaccaro is saying is true”.
GB:
Third slander?
CZ:
Third slander is the one I got three months.
GB:
This one here from… precisely which? Is this from 98?
CZ:
From 98. Yes from 98 yes, 98.
GB:
Is this third slander is it the one related to the Turin process?
CZ:
It is the one related to the false attempt in Milan…
GB:
That.
CZ:
… which I was part of the Services.
GB:
Here, can you explain this one to me? You were part of the Services? Secret?
CZ:
Undercover, intelligence services of the Finance [Force] yes.
GB:
And you were an informer for the Finance?
CZ:
I was an informer yes.
GB:
And at a certain point you accused whom?
CZ:
I accused those of the Finance because they fired me.
GB:
Those of the Finance.
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
These two from the Finance did they constituted themselves Civil Parties [plaintiffs]?

[50]

CZ:
I don’t know.
GB:
Yes.
CZ:
And there was Cali and Cina’, yes, yes they did constituted themselves.
GB:
They did constituted themselves Civil Parties.
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
And did turned out that these that you accused were innocent?
CZ:
I don’t know that, I didn’t get to the bottom of things so I don’t know if…
GB:
You didn’t get to the bottom of things…
CZ:
No.
GB:
… but you were convicted?
CZ:
Three months.
GB:
Yes for…
CZ:
But not, not for that, not for that slander against… how are they called the… the Marshalls of the Finance Guards, I think eh, then I don’t know…
GB:
Listen, you are in prison since 98?
CZ:
Since 98 in prison yes, I came out in 96 in semi-freedom and I was incarcerated again in January 14, 2010.
GB:
Since 98 to now how many years…
CZ:
They’re twenty-one…no, they’re thirteen years.
GB:
These thirteen years, so you had high penalties?
CZ:
And mine is a residual penalty I’m serving, of crimes from 1980 up to 2000 and something so…
GB:
You at the moment have benefits?
CZ:
No.
GB:
No benefit?
CZ:
No and I haven’t requested any [jail] benefits for the statements that I made. I wish to point out that out to you.
GB:
Listen, this friendship this relationship [51] with Aviello you said it intensified in May 2010?
CZ:
No it was not ever intensified, Aviello was telling whoever was spending social free-time with him these stupidities be it true or not true Aviello at a certain point said: “I was called by dottoressa Bongiorno…” which I don’t know if it is you or who may be…
GB:
Me, me, I am look.
CZ:
Okay, “… she promised me seventy thousand euros to create confusion in this pro…” be it true or not true I don’t know because no…
GB:
But look I however, much fairly would like to know, since you indicate May 2010…
CZ:
Yes right.
GB:
… would like to know if you remember this date, May 2010.
CZ:
And I do remember it yes, is in the acts, recorded acts.
GB:
Mr. Alello [sic] was telling you…
CZ:
Aviello.
GB:
… Aviello…
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
… was telling you that I, Counsel Bongiorno, had already gone to him and I had se…
CZ:
Really Aviello…
GB:
Wait! Can you let me finish the question?
CZ:
Oh, I beg your pardon.
GB:
That I, then in May 2010, I had already been at the prison?
CZ:
Aviello told me in May 2010, he said: “I have been, I have cont…” Aviello had contacted you…
GB:
I see.
CZ:
… and not that you had contacted Aviello, Aviello had contacted you because he had allegations to make about this murder.

[52]

GB:
And I had already been to hear him?
CZ:
I canot know about this if you went, I was not present, whether you went to Ivrea or you’ve been in the prison before or you didn’t go, I cannot know this.
GB:
You cannot know… but I wish to know if Aviello told you…
CZ:
That he met you.
GB:
… that he met me.
CZ:
This no, now…
GB:
Because you well know that if a Lawyer, or whoever also, even a member of parliament go to prison…
CZ:
Halt, halt, halt! Myself in the long gone 87 in Prison of Ivrea, at 12:30 at night, at half past midnight some came… eight persons from [secret] Services to meet me, the day after I asked the institution [detention centre] who were those people that came to meet me, the institution -detention centre- had no record of anything.
GB:
These are [secret] Services though eh, they are the [secret] Services.
CZ:
Now I don’t know if Lawyers count…
GB:
I assure you that everything remains the same.
CZ:
Don’t know, frankly I don’t know.
GB:
Listen, tell me one thing, in May 2010…
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
… did Aiello [sic] that in reality he was already heard by a Lawyer but from the Knox defence and certainly not by a Lawyer for Sollecito?
CZ:
I don’t know this.
GB:
Didn’t he tell you?
CZ:
No, he did not tell me.
GB:
That already a Lawyer for Amanda Knox had been?
CZ:
No.

[53]

GB:
He didn’t tell you. Do you know then that this Aviello was called by Knox’s defence and not by Sollecito’s defence?
CZ:
No.
GB:
You know that there was an agreement, you said, why must the agreement be between Aviello and Alessi so they could say the same things?
CZ:
To create confusion [chaos] on the case.
GB:
Creating…
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
Do you know, and so what confusion [chaos] they had to create?
CZ:
I don’t know, you ask Aviello don’t ask me, frankly I don’t…
GB:
You have stated on the summary information that they would have to accuse Aviello’s brother.
CZ:
Yes of Aviello, that at the end of it all I just don’t… think that it is true.
GB:
Okay, for now you respond to me.
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
So they would have been in agreement Aviello and Alessi and say the same things.
CZ:
I don’t know this if Aviello and Alessi…
GB:
This is what Aviello told you.
CZ:
I… that is what Aviello told me but I am not in Aviello’s mind to hear if Aviello said to Alessi if they were in contact or not, I cannot know that.
GB:
I am asking you, since we are putting questions to you about Aviello…
CZ:
And I am answering you.
GB:
… it is pointless you telling me that you don’t know if [54] Aviello lied or not, we know, you are reporting hearsay. Basically…
CZ:
I didn’t understand.
GB:
You are reporting that is what was reported to you, therefore on the basis of Aviello’s account…
CZ:
Yes.
GB:
The question is: Alessi and Aviello would both of them had to accuse the brother of Aviello?
CZ:
They had to do everything for, they had to do everything to make this process collapse.
GB:
You stated here that they had to accuse the brother of Aviello.
CZ:
The brother of Aviello yes.
GB:
You confirm it to me?
CZ:
I do confirm it to you yes.
GB:
You know though that Alessi has not in the least accused the brother of Aviello…
CZ:
But I don’t know whom Alessi accused, this is everything that was told by Luciano Aviello, I have never seen Alessi because I was in the Ivrea prison, I haven’t been in Alessi’s detention place. Frankly…
CPH:
Right, after you will argue this thing in sum, let us stick…
CZ:
I didn’t understand.
CPH:
No I wasn’t referring to you, I was telling to Counsel Bongiorno.
CZ:
Pardon me.
GB:
In the scope of these summaries… you wrote a letter to the Police for you to be heard?
CZ:
Yes. Three, I wrote three times, eight… I wrote in May, I was heard in October, I was heard in November, I was heard February 16 [55] this year.
GB:
Okay.
GC:
You must always speak slowly and closer to the microphone.
CZ:
Yes pardon me. No, I remember well the dates they were, it was October 12, November 12 and February 16, 2010, 2011.
GB:
Listen, one other thing, in this whole situation you at a certain point spoke of Luxuria?
CZ:
Of?
GB:
Luxuria?
CZ:
I was told, I was always told by Aviello that he had to get in contact with Luxuria because they should have him operated on, to make him homo… lady.
GC:
No you must…
CZ:
I beg your pardon, Aviello like I said he told me in… he told to Diego Romeo, he told Massimiliano Cavallone and to Massimiliano Ricci that he wanted to meet in prison the lady Luxuria, as ever sent by the Lawyer Bongiorno, to get agreements for him to have surgery, that then if this is true or not true I don’t know.
GB:
And Luxuria and I we went together?
CZ:
But I cannot know if you went in the institution…

Civil parties Counsel F. Maresca: There’s objection President.

CZ:
If I am inside the institution at the 4th A I cannot know, I cannot know the Lawyers that go into the institution, Aviello every so often would come down, Avielo at a certain point had a job in the library that no detainee could possibly have, Aviello did have that benefit before he was transferred. Aviello sent me a message through a volunteer of the institution of… the Ivrea prison, that he was already in Alba, he told me through this volunteer, Paolo Bersani [56] I even give you the name, he said: “Zaccaro, try to mind your own business”. Returning back to the prison of… coming from Turin returning back to Ivrea I’ve received a letter threatening me… handed over to the Questura, to the deputy Commissioner, I don’t know if the deputy Commissioner afterwards gave it to the Public Prosecutor, was handed over to the director of the prison where I was threatened of murder if I continue to tell these things of, regarding Aviello, which I at a certain point don’t know if the things are true or not…. I was threatened for these… in fact I didn’t even want to come to court, what I ask, when the hearing finishes, is to go back now and possibly to be moved even from Asti.
GB:
Listen, do you remember that all these statements about me, about Luxuria etc, you made them after an interruption of your tape recording?
CZ:
No.
GB:
Therefore I request to…
CZ:
I think eh, but…
GB:
I request to produce a transcript from which is obtained that initially the gentleman did not make these statements, this is a transcript interruption, closing of tape recording and at reopening…
CZ:
No, it came to my mind afterwards when…
GB:
Yes, after the recording was interrupted.
CZ:
I don’t know now if the record… I don’t ask if the recording is interrupted or not, like I don’t know at this moment if the recording is interrupted or not, It came to mind the other particular and immediately I told the deputy Commissioner.
GB:
Thanks.
CPH:
Please, any questions? Let us keep on track because otherwise we go beyond…

[57]

Defence Counsel C. Dalla Vedova: Absolutely, I’ll be very brief President. Lawyer Dalla Vedova for Knox…

CZ:
I didn’t understand.
CDV:
Lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova on behalf of Miss. Knox…
CZ:
Good morning.
CDV:
I would like you to explain exactly why did you consider writing to the Prosecutor in relation to these stories you got from Aviello.
CZ:
Because, according to me, it was not right that Aviello was accusing a person, after he said in jail cell number 5 in my view in the prison were Aviello was locked up, he said: “This’s why in conclusion I am accusing my brother of a murder he didn’t commit”, I didn’t think it was right that a person accuses a brother his own blood of a murder that truthfully didn’t… its of a good citizen to call who is in charge and tell everything that was happening.
CDV:
And do you know Aviello’s brother?
CZ:
No I don’t know… I hardly know Aviello.
CDV:
And why to the Questura of Perugia and not the Ivrea Prison or the Prosecutor’s Office of Ivrea?
CZ:
I didn’t understand.
CDV:
Why did you think it was the duty to write to the Prosecutor’s of Perugia and not to the competent Prosecutor’s of Ivrea?
CZ:
Okay if you can call… if you call Commissioner Volpe, the deputy Commissioner Volpe from the Prison of Ivrea, I before I wrote to the Questura of Perugia I called Commissioner Volpe and I told him: “Look what is happening…” he said: “Zaccaro we can’t do [58] nothing, write to whom is in charge” and I wrote to whom is in charge, I didn’t know who the Public Prosecutor in charge of the proceedings was, I wrote to the Questura seeing that on the news papers it was written “Aviello has sent…”, one question that I’m making is: how come Aviello instead of writing to the Prosecutors he wrote to the lawyers to give information?
GB:
He wrote to the President of the first trial.
CZ:
After, after.
CDV:
Okay, wait, wait…
CZ:
How come Aviello, when they arrested Mr. Sollecito and Miss. Amanda Knox, knowing them innocent, didn’t immediately say: “It was my brother who killed her” and he allowed to be convicted?
CDV:
Aviello told you…
CZ:
For me they are innocent, in my opinion they could be innocent…
CDV:
Mr. Zaccaro…
CPH:
All right.
CZ:
Tell me.
CDV:
Aviello told you that he wrote letters?
CZ:
No. He never said anything.
CDV:
And how did Aviello gave account of this brother?
CZ:
Now…
CDV:
What did he tell you on the circumstance of the brother?
CZ:
Aviello, Aviello when he arrived in the prison of Ivrea…
CDV:
When?
CZ:
In… February or March 2010.
CDV:
February or March 2010?

[59]

CZ:
If I remember correctly eh, now the date of when he arrived… came out in television that he was cited together with Alessi in the Meredith process. He said: “No no, is Alessi who is implicating me”, these’re the words spoken by Aviello.
CDV:
This you know, excuse me, you know this because in February 2010 Aviello would have told you this circumstance?
CZ:
I don’t know if it was February, I know it was before May, February or March, just as he arrived in the institution, he was in jail cell number 1 Aviello. It came out on television that he and Alessi would be testifying, him and Alessi in this process here…
CDV:
After did you speak with Aviello?
CZ:
With Aviello after for a bit of time none of us spoke with him, then he changed jail cell and he left, since we did the new section and we voluntarily whitewash - painted the whole section… as volunteers we whitewash the whole section…
CDV:
And then in May you did have this conversation.
CZ:
Exactly. At courtyard free time we used to speak, Aviello one day called me, he said: “Can you come in social-time to me I have to tell you some things?”, I said: “Alright, I came in social-time, at 4 I’ll come in social-time” and that day of May he told me what was happening why it come out on the newspapers that Aviello had…
GC:
(Off microphone)
CZ:
It came out on the news papers, on the CronacaQui of Turin that Aviello was accusing his brother of a murder, he in his jail was crying and said: “ They already killed a brother of mine, I no longer have a family, I accuse my brother in order to have money and have surgery” these are the exact words [60] of Luciano Aviello.
CDV:
Did Aviello ever tell you of meeting with Lawyer Dalla Vedova in March 31 2010?
CZ:
No he never said it.
CVD:
Did Aviello ever tell you that he had written three letters to the President of the Court of Assize of Appeal of Perugia?
CZ:
No, he never said it. If he wrote them afterwards I don’t… if he was in isolation cell perhaps he wrote them this I don’t know when they’re dated…
CDV:
But the last time you spoke with Aviello when was it?
CZ:
May, afterwards I no longer…
CDV:
Therefore you and Aviello spoke only one time.
CZ:
No we spoke until he was in the section, Aviello after…
CDV:
But about this circumstance how many times did you speak? You told me that you spoke in May about this issue…
CZ:
We spoke of this situation that he wanted, to accuse the brother, that he was contacted to create confusion in this process, in the month of May, afterwards he was able to get into isolation when he understood that the atmosphere was no longer for him, he requested to go into isolation. Strangely enough soon after they gave him a job as a librarian, which they don’t give to any detainee.
CDV:
And what is this suppose to mean, excuse me? I don’t understand.
CZ:
We understood it as someone was helping him to get the benefits. Stop, that’s all. But with Aviello after May I’ve never spoke to him again.

[61]

CDV:
So Aviello would have had the benefits because he had accused the brother? Is this your interpretation?
FM:
President…
CZ:
Avielo did not have benefits because he was accusing the brother…
CDV:
You just said it.
CZ:
To Aviello it was promised…
CPH:
It is always about what Aviello told him if then is true or not is another argument.
CZ:
Excuse, excuse me Counsel, Aviello said that he obtained the benefits for creating confusion in this process. And stop, is useless that we keep beating on…
CPH:
We understand that he refers to…
CZ:
Apologies to the Court… (inc. background voice).
CPH:
… the words of Aviello and that’s all, nothing more. Could be true, could be false…
CZ:
I just tell whatever Aviello recounted to me, to Ilic, to Cavallone, to Ricci and other detainees when in the section and that is hat he with this thing he was doing he could earn benefits. Stop. When I asked to speak with the deputy Commissioner of the Questura I did not ask for any benefits, the only thing I asked and I repeat, I asked if it was possible to be transfer to the Turin prison because there is a small section there and appropriate for those like me lets say, that bring information to the Police Force and don’t get harm, that’s all. Just that…
CDV:
And this it happened?
CZ:
Huh?
CDV:
Did it happen?
CZ:
No. I’m only…
CDV:
Thank you President, I have no more questions.

[62]

CPH:
Very well thank you. Questions?

Second Judge M. Zanetti: Listen excuse me, I did not understand…

CZ:
Tell me.
MZ:
… you referred to years back, your collaboration with the Services…
CZ:
Yes.
MZ:
… what work did you used to do when you collaborated with the Services?
CZ:
Restaurateur.
MZ:
What did you do?
CZ:
Restaurateur, I still do up to now.
MZ:
And the collaboration with the Services came about because you were getting paid, with money, or was it for idealistic motives?
CZ:
Okay, I now tell you how I was contacted, I’ve collaborated with the Services as far back as 86, with the Finance Guard not with the Services, with the Finance Guard, I done operations as well as for the the Finance Guard, for the Questura and the Carabinieri in fact I got taken in by several law enforcements, afterwards I gave up on my collaborations, I gave it up because in between threats that I received and various other things I said it was not worthy to me anymore to collaborate. In 96…
MZ:
Listen, excuse me, is not that I want to interrupt you but I don’t like wasting time unnecessarily…
CZ:
Tell me.
MZ:
I asked if you collaborated for idealistic motives or because they paid you, that’s all.
CZ:
No, I for… no, not because they paid me, to be honest they paid peanuts, precisely because of my ideals as I took a wrong path since… I was 18 years old, I don’t blame my father and I don’t blame my parents, only that money was scarce in my family and I become a delinquent. If I could [63] go back to the past I would have not done it at all, I’m telling you from my heart I would not have done it.
CPH:
It happens quite a lot however…
CZ:
Huh?
CPH:
It happens very often that if one could go back in time so many things would not have been done.
CZ:
What’s more I’ve became a grandfather on the 22 of this month of another little grandson therefore no…
CPH:
Alright, you can leave now thank you.

End trans.