Alexander Ilic's Testimony (English)

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Summary of Alexander Ilic's Testimony

  • A prisoner who met Luciano Aviello at Ivrea prison the previous summer.
  • Testified that Aviello had told him that he had met Raffaele Sollecito while at Terni prison.
  • Testified that Aviello had told him he hoped to get collaborator benefits by participating in this trial.
  • Testified that Aviello had told him that he had met with Bongiorno (Raffaele Sollecito's lawyer) and that he had been promised money for his testimony.
    • Aviello had said he was going to use the money for gender reassignment surgery.
      • Asked how much money Ilic said that he did not remember the exact amount but that it was significant given the cost of the surgery. Was reminded that on November 12, 2010 Ilic had said €158,000 and Ilic agreed with that amount.
  • Testified that Aviello had papers on gender reassignment and that he showed Ilic one that was signed by Raffaele Sollecito although Ilic was unable to give details of what the content of the signed paper was.
  • Ilic also testified that Aviello had a neckerchief that he said was a gift from Raffaele Sollecito and that Sollecito had sent him books.


Alexander Ilic's Testimony

This is an English language translation of the testimony. See Alexander Ilic's Testimony for the original Italian transcript.

Translation of Ilic's deposition at AK/RS appeals trial June 27, 2011. Translated from the Italian court transcript: Media:Testimony 06 27 11.pdf

Thank you to Jools from the PerugiaMurderfile.org community for this translation.

Key to abbreviations
GC Giancarlo Costagliola Prosecutor Procuratore Generale
AI Alexander Ilic Witness being questioned
CPH Claudio Pratillo Hellmann Judge Presidente
GM Giuliano Mignini Prosecutor Pubblico Ministero
FM Francesco Maresca Counsel for Kercher family (civil plaintiffs) Avvocato
GB Giulia Bongiorno Sollecito defense lawyer Avvocato
LM Luca Maori Sollecito defense lawyer Avvocato
CDV Carlo Dalla Vedova Knox defense lawyer Avvocato
WITNESS DEPOSITION – ILIC ALEXANDER

THE WITNESS CAUTIONED IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARTICLE 497 OF THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, LEGAL PRACTICE FORMULA.

PRESIDING JUDGE -CPH: State your personal details, please.

Personal details: My name is Ilic Alexander, born July 14, 1985, in Serbia Montenegro.

Presiding Judge-CPH: Please Prosecutor General.

GC:
Do you know Luciano Aviello?
AI:
Yes.
GC:
Can you tell me since when do you know him and when did you meet him.
AI:
I met him in the facility… I met him in the Ivrea prison.
GC:
And when?
AI:
Last year, last summer more or less.
GC:
Did you have conversations with Aviello?
AI:
I was in the same jail cell.
GC:
You were precisely, were you permanent in his cell?
AI:
Yes.
GC:
Aviello spoke to you about Raffaele Sollecito?
AI:
Yes that he met him in the Terni prison.

[64]

GC:
Because they were together in that prison?
AI:
Sorry?
GC:
He met him in the prison, when he was detained there?
AI:
Yes I think so.
GC:
And did he tell you if they spoke about the process of Sollecito?
AI:
Yes he did inform me something.
GC:
What did he tell you of Sollecito’s process?
AI:
Well, that they spoke and therefore Aviello was to claim that what occurred here in Perugia he (RS) was not involved at all but that it was really Luciano Aviello’s brother.
GC:
Aviello claimed this?
AI:
Yes.
GC:
No, what I’m saying… about this is, does it seem to you that Aviello spoke about it with Sollecito?
AI:
Sorry?
GC:
Does it seem to you that he also spoke about it with Sollecito?
AI:
Yes, of course about the statements of Luciano Aviello at the time he was in the same jail cell as me.
GC:
Then you knew that, he also told him the entire story.
AI:
Yes, more or less yes.
GC:
And did you think that perhaps the story was true or that it was invented?
AI:
In my opinion the whole story is invented because it was something that didn’t stand up.
GC:
But it wasn’t because Aviello told you something.

[65]

AI:
Yes he did also tell me something that he thrown himself on this little story to have… benefits as collaborator of justice.
GC:
Collaborator benefits… these were benefits that Aviello was after.
AI:
Yes.
GC:
All right. I have no more questions… and did Aviello added if by chance he knew Alessi?
AI:
If he knew?
GC:
Also Alessi.
AI:
No, I don’t precisely remember because also a bit of time has since passed.
GC:
You never saw them together.
AI:
No.
GC:
Okay.
CPH:
All right, defence?

Public Prosecutor –

GM:
Excuse me I have to…
CPH:
Please do Public Prosecutor.
GM:
One second, I have to find the point.

[Voices in background]

GM:
Have you ever seen Alessi and Aviello together?
AI:
No how could I? I was in the prison of Ivrea, they arrived after, Aviello arrived there at Ivrea from… he transferred from the Terni prison I think.
GM:
Have you had threats?
AI:
From Aviello, one time.
GM:
Do tell us.
AI:
Well, he found out that I was contacted by you, I don’t know how, where I recounted whatever I came across and he said: “Don’t put obstacles in my way otherwise I’ll make you pay for it”.
GM:
And when did this happen?

[66]

AI:
In November 2010.
GM:
Where were you?
AI:
I was in the Ivrea prison in solitary.
GM:
And how did he managed to get to…
AI:
He was placed on the ground floor where he had a job as a scribe ((Jools: probably means librarian J))
GM:
So he came near your jail cell.
AI:
Yes.
GM:
And what did he tell you in particular?
AI:
“Don’t put obstacles in my way otherwise I’ll make you pay for it”.
GM:
Did you asked, or said anything to him?
AI:
No, I completely ignored him.
GM:
I have no more questions.
CPH:
Counsel Maresca do you have any questions?

Civil Parties Lawyer F. Maresca: Before the defence or first… because we followed…

CPH:
The defence I seem to understand that they don’t have any questions.
FM:
First the defence.
CPH:
Yes but seems to me they don’t have questions.
FM:
Yes, just two clarifications. You recall what Aviello told you, if he told you anything, about the statements he made? What was his interest? Did he say anything in relation the fact you mentioned before?
AI:
In what sense? Can you please rephrase the question with a bit more plain words?
FM:
Did he say to you what did he get, how did it happen, if he was contacted, if he had dealings with anyone? Did he tell you…
AI:
Not this… this no, but he did tell me that anyway he got the [jail] benefits… in the knowledge somehow that in the past he was a collaborator of justice.

[67]

FM:
Yes this is what I’m asking you, what would have been his deal if had told those things? He would get the benefits, would get…
AI:
I think benefits like a sentence reduction.
FM:
Did he refer to you if any Lawyer from the Sollecito or Knox defence team contacted him?
AI:
Yes.
FM:
Yes, do you remember whom by, how… what for?
AI:
I only remember the [female] lawyer Giulia Bongiorno.
FM:
What was the reason?
AI:
For the statements he had made that kind of thing.
FM:
What he had claimed about his brother?
AI:
Yes.
FM:
Did he also mention anything about what he would have said in relation to his brother?
AI:
No, his brother Antonio or as he told me his name and… he didn’t, he didn’t tell me details.
FM:
Did he tell you about the, what he would have said in relation to the brother?
AI:
No.
FM:
What was the brother suppose to have done in his story?
AI:
Ah yes, he said that he had to establish that he had hidden the keys in his apartment…
FM:
Right, you were… you were clear on this point at the time when you answered to the officials of Judiciary Police questions, you remember something or not?
AI:
No by now it has been nearly eight months, nine months or so I don’t… I vaguely remember a bit.
FM:
Did Aviello told you if he was perhaps [68] promised money in exchange for these statements made by him?
AI:
Yes this yes.
FM:
Yes, he had spoken to Raffaele Sollecito where he gave him a gift of a “fazzolettino” ((neckerchief)) that his grandfather gave to his father, the father gave it to Raffaele and Raffaele then gave it to Luciano, where in any case Luciano Aviello made him this promise to help him in all the way and where he would get rewarded with money.
FM:
Do you recall what was the aim purpose for this money?
AI:
I think to exonerate him from the case charges.
FM:
Yes but for Aviello what would this money be useful for?
AI:
He had to have a trans gender operation.
FM:
Listen, but did you find yourself in agreement with this attitude of Aviello or not?
AI:
Well you know how it is, in prison…
FM:
Or you told him something, the…
AI:
No to be honest I told him… I supported him at that moment and then I didn’t go again, or rather I made him moved [jail] cell.
FM:
Have you ever seen Alessi and Aviello walk about together?
AI:
No, like I said before I was in the Ivrea jail where Luciano Aviello came, I have never been where Aviello and the others were.
FM:
Mario Alessi, I’m talking about Mario Alessi.
AI:
Mario Alessi.
FM:
Yes. Okay thank you President, I’ve finished.

[69]

CPH:
All right.

Defence Counsel G. Bongiorno: Speaking of…

FM:
After all the defence did have questions then I will have to do mine after.
CPH:
No but Counsel Bongiorno was called into play then I think is fair…
GB:
Look, point number one the roster since always and according to the Code is Public Prosecutor, Civil Party, maybe…
FM:
But since the examination is the…
CPH:
She was called into play. Go on Counsel Bongiorno, go.
CPH:
Thank you President.
FM:
According to the Code is not like that though…
GB:
Best you look up the Code again other… various Codes.

Listen; speaking of this sum of money, do you remember the sum of money that was talked about what was the amount?

AI:
No I don’t remember now however it was… quite a lot of money because it had to go through this operation…
GB:
Sure. Do you recall that you claimed in November 17, 2010 that the sum was of 158 thousand euros?
AI:
Yes I’ve claimed it in Ivrea I think, or Perugia, don’t remember.
GB:
158 thousand euros. And do you remember that even there was supposed to be a sheet of paper signed by Sollecito in where it was mentioning of this agreement?
AI:
Yes Luciano Aviello had it from where he first become in contact over where they both were at in Terni.
GB:
And in this sheet of paper do you recall what was alleged?

[70]

AI:
No, just vaguely.
GB:
Do you recall of you stating that even attached to these sheets of paper there were some sheets attached, paper sheets for gender reassignment?
AI:
Yes, he had the modules which he had followed…
GB:
So in essence it would’ve been a letter signed by Sollecito attached to things related to a reassignment of gender?
AI:
Yes where…. I don’t know if Sollecito gave him these sheets or he already had them…
GB:
What do you understand by paper sheets related to gender reassignment?
AI:
Where he had all sorts of computer printouts, he also had that neckerchief which was a present Raffaele Sollecito had giving him, he had books that he’d help him to study…
GB:
But for now I want to talk of this sort of written agreement about the sex changed.
AI:
Sure.
GB:
Eh, what does it mean? Then was it a commitment for Raffaele Sollecito to guarantee this?
AI:
Yes.
GB:
And what was written in this sheet of paper?
AI:
Now I don’t remember dottoresa, it’s been a long… eight or nine months.
GB:
And why did he made him put it in writing? In case of non-fulfillment it’ll be taken to court?
AI:
I don’t know, I think so.
GB:
And something else, do you know if Luxuria has had a role in all of this?
AI:
Would have come to the prison… they even had an epistolary contact as per what Aviello told me.
GB:
And this Luxuria what role was she suppose to have?

[71]

AI:
I have no idea, I can’t remember, don’t want to say something for the sake of it.
GB:
Do you know if Luxuria actually went to the prison?
Il:
No because by then I was moved to another facility.
GB:
Do you know if I actually went to the prison?
AI:
To meet Aviello?
GB:
Yes.
AI:
No, couldn’t… I couldn’t say.
GB:
Do you know if instead the lawyers of Amanda Knox went to hear Aviello?
AI:
No, I wouldn’t be able to tell you. I don’t want to say something for the sake of it.
GB:
Thank you.
AI:
Not at all, please.
CPH:
All right.

Defence Counsel L. Maori: Lawyer Maori, defence of Sollecito. Listen, Mr. Ilic, you on November 17 last year…

AI:
Yes.
LM:
You were heard twice.
AI:
Yes.
LM:
On the same date. The first time where were you heard?
AI:
At Ivrea.
LM:
Where?
AI:
First was in jail then in the barracks at Ivrea.
LM:
In barracks what does it mean?
AI:
In Barracks, the Carabinieri Barracks.
LM:
Barracks of the Carabinieri? So you went outside prison?
AI:
Yes.

[72]

LM:
And for what reason did you go out of prison? Did you have a permit?
AI:
No, I left directly with the Penitentiary Police.
LM:
But what was the reason?
AI:
Because inside prison I didn’t want to say anything because I’ve … I didn’t want to say anything there.
LM:
What’s the reason why you didn’t want to say anything in prison and instead wanted to say something outside the jail?
AI:
I felt more protected.
LM:
And by going outside of prison weren’t you afraid then that your inmates could discover that you were gone out of jail for few hours and then, and then…
AI:
No, also because when I left I was located in the isolated cell and went out as if it was a hospital appointment visit.
LM:
Therefore you had to claim you were ill?
AI:
No, I did not claim I was sick; I just went out like that if on my return to prison had they asked where I’ve been it was a hospital visit.
LM:
Most peculiar. Listen; when the police heard you, were your statements recorded?
AI:
Yes.
LM:
Did you have in front of you any sheets of paper? Were you reading something?
AI:
No.
LM:
Are you sure?
AI:
Yes.
LM:
That you were not reading something that then you had not caught on?
AI:
No.

[73]

LM:
So you had no notes in front of you.
AI:
No.
LM:
For how long were you sharing a jail cell with Aviello?
AI:
A couple of weeks.
LM:
How long?
AI:
A couple of weeks, around that.
LM:
And when was this?
AI:
Summer 2010.
LM:
What month?
AI:
I don’t remember.
LM:
Okay. Thank you.
CPH:
Okay.

Defence Counsel C.Dalla Vedova: Just a clarification in relation to these latest statements, you said that you were heard in Ivrea and in Perugia.

AI:
Yes.
CDV:
On this second circumstance… excuse me look to the President, excuse…
AI:
If I’m speaking to you though…
CDV:
No, no, you look at the President, there is no need for you to look at the Prosecutor.
CPH:
You must just listen to the questions and look to us.
CDV:
I’d like to know: were you heard also in Perugia?
AI:
Yes.
CDV:
When?
AI:
First of December.

[74]

CDV:
2011?
AI:
No 201… yes yes.
FM:
2011 is the current year.
CDV:
So you were heard the first of December 2010.
AI:
I was also heard 17 or 22 of November, now I don’t remember exact date, in Ivrea, then I was moved from isolation on December 22 to the prison of Turin where I’ve contacted…
CDV:
Look over there to the President please.
AI:
…I’ve contacted directly the person who would interrogate me and I told another version but it was December 2010.
CDV:
And on that occasion who questioned you, how were you heard, was the reporting of evidence recorded, was it audiotape.
AI:
Yes both were used reporting of evidence minutes and audio recording.
CDV:
By who were you heard?
AI:
By the Public Prosecutor.
CDV:
Can you be more precise? Dr. Mignini?
AI:
Yes.
CDV:
You are pointing at him?
AI:
Yes.
CDV:
Understood. President, this activity of December 1st doesn’t seem to be in the acts, the Prosecution deposited a series of documents I think it’s important to request the acquisition at this point.
CPH:
Very well, you’ll all make it a subject to be discuss I imagine.
CDV:
Sure. Where are you located now?
AI:
At Perugia in prison.
CDV:
I understand yes, sure. Thank you.
CPH:
All right you can go. Wait, are there any more questions?

[75]

FM:
President for everyone’s information on the deposit done by the Prosecution it turns out the filling is there for the reporting of evidence statement by Ilic Alexander dated December 1, 2010, all of us have it at our disposal therefore what Counsel Dalla Vedova is referring to doesn’t correspond with the truth from a procedural point of view.
CDV:
President…
FM:
Just like all the other reporting of evidence statements by all witnesses being heard today each one of us have them in front of us.
CPH:
Very well thank you, you can go. At this point lets have a brief pause, we will reconvene at 14: 45. (Adjournment)

End trans.